blazzer

Hey guys, so the past week i have been searching and searching to figure this out.

My setup

B16a sir2
s80 tranny (believe it is a 95-97 itr tranny, was told it is a 98-01 jdm itr tranny but i have my doubts)
exedy stage 1 clutch.
stock linkage
stock shifter(not a short throw)

SO bassicaly from what i understand, 3 weeks ago bought the car (private sale) seemed great ran excellent, shifted excellent.
week later reverse gets locked out, 3rd gear and 5th gear grind when being engaged at over 4500 rpm.

i thought synchro's or a busted/bent fork.

i changed to gm synchro mesh friction modified fluid, helped the grinding but has been no fix.
double and triple checked clutch engagement and slave cylinder for the hydro's on the tranny. all seems good.

this seems internal to me but im looking for idea's as im prbly going to get it rebuilt, sadly i was told the tranny was rebuilt about 30-40,000 km ago by previous owner.

would to thin of an oil cause a problem like this?
why would reverse lock out and 3rd and 5th start having a small-mild grinding engagement problem?

were i live ( canada alberta) is a hick cow town, so no one deals with honda's so getting feed back on the problem, online is my only resource. help would be hugely appreciated.

my other issue is i have my doubts on the kind of tranny it is, the tranny stamp is gone, no lsd marking that i can find. im assuming to be safe it has a 4.4 or 4.2 FD. either way, getting it rebuilt i was gonna buy a gear-x FD kit 4.53 or a 4.78. any advice on this?

i was going to buy 1st,3rd,4th&5th gear's as well BUT being a DD 120 km(74mph) @ 6000 rpm is not ideal for highway driving. so maybe just the final until i get a new Daily driver.
thoughts on the 4.53 vs 4.78 on stock gear ratios (assuming this is a 95-97 itr, being:
3.23
2.10
1.45
1.10
0.84
FD stock 4.4
my thought 4.53/4.78 straight cut.

(my tuning build over time to aim towards N/A and track.


second issue is paying 1400$ for a jdm(imported) tranny from a 98-01 itr (the one with a 7.85 FD the better choice? or would rebuilding my tranny to stock or oem parts from a usdm itr with a 4.53 or 4.78 FD be better.

would really like some help and feedback for this. thnx guys

jbpnoman

It could be the synchros, or it could be the sleeves. A standard rebuild doesn't usually include the sleeves, and most people who do back yard rebuilds don't have the tool necessary to spec the sleeves and gearsets, let alone the know-how to actually do it. The fact is, you can't know what's wrong with the transmission until you pop the case open and start measuring things. A good micrometer and a factory service manual will be your best friend here. I saw you mentioned straight cut gears - you don't want them on a DD. They're loud as ****. Stick with the OEM-style helically cut gears.

As for gear replacement, use this website to calculate your gears. It's seriously your best friend. You can use some funky combinations with the B series transmissions. Figuring out if you actually have an ATB transmission is easy - pop out the axles and halfshaft. If you can see through the differential, you have an ATB differential. If there's a bar running through it, you don't.

As for shelling out $1400 for a replacement transmission, do yourself a favor and crack your case open first. Inspect your gearsets. Measure your sleeves. If they're all within spec, you can rebuild it yourself for a hell of a lot less than $1400. If things are out of spec, start adding up the costs for replacement parts, and figure out which direction will be more economically responsible for you.

blazzer

thnx for the reply man. and ya you are right, i dont have all the necessary tools let a lone a proper way to get the tranny out of the engine, so i was gonna save a headache and have a shop do it. simply because of my lack of space and proper tools.

as for straight cut, is there gonna be more wear and tear with a SC final drive? or simply is it just because they are loud? never ran one so curiosity is getting the best of me at the moment.

for 1400$ of the sleeves and synchros need to be replaced and a full rebuild (as a worse case scenario) is the better route still getting a full rebuild or buying a different tranny. keeping in mind buying a tranny does not mean it is new. so my local jdm shop quoted me 1400$ installed for a 98+ itr s80, or get my current tranny rebuilt with w/e FD and or gears i want?

and idea why synchro's would lock out reverse though? that bit has me wicked confused!

blazzer

ya, i've been messing with the b-series tranny calc. for the last week. bassicaly i have no idea where to get gears made for whatever gear ratio i want so i have been looking at gear-x ( password jdm and inline four) and the best 5th gear ratio i can find is a 1.00 which at a 4.53 (even 4.40) still has a pretty high rpm range for highway driving, lowest i got was about 5800 rpm @ 120 km(74 miles) while right now at 0.84 being stock 4000-4200 rpm @ 120 km(74miles)
so, the calc in sweet, my issue being which FD seems better suited for a DD/track setup between 4.53 and 4.78/ i do have options for a 4.92 but that almost seem to high for what i want. the 4.53 and 4.78 seem good for my future gear ratio's for DD and track driving.

i do apologize for my many questions.

jbpnoman

Getting a transmission out is easy. Put a jack under it, remove your axles and midshaft, unbolt everything, pull it off, lower the jack, and pull it out from under the car. The tools for working on your own transmission are cheap, they're just rather specialized. Besides basic hand tools (sockets, ratchets, extensions), all you need is some feeler gauges and a micrometer. Transmission shops will absolutely rape you on prices, just because of how "scary" transmissions are, even to some hardened gear-heads.

I'm not a transmission guru, but I don't see how you could use a straight cut FD with helical gears - it's all or nothing there. Helical gears just can't engage with straight cut gears properly. Straight cut gears are loud as hell, though - with helical gears, some part of the gear is always touching some part of the other gear, so they "slide" on and off of each other while rotating, whereas straight cut gears are just that - straight cut. They are constantly coming off, then slapping back onto each other, which causes them to hum.

If you're willing to do the work yourself, you can get the full carbon master kit from Synchrotech for $700. I've always bought my transmission internals from them, and have absolutely zero complaints. That kit covers your synchros, sleeves, bearings, and seals - basically everything except your diff, shafts, and actual gearsets. You can get a decent micrometer for ~$50, and feeler gauges are cheap. You'll need a factory service manual as well, which can be found on Google for free.99. Pick up some OEM fluid, as well. For (nearly) half what the shop would charge you, you could completely rebuild the transmission yourself. That's also assuming all of your sleeves are bad - the price to DIY can only go down from there. It's your money, though, and it's up to you. Sometimes, you can't put a price on a warranty.

Synchros shouldn't lock out R unless they're chewed to ****, which is why I mentioned sleeves being out of spec.

As for the custom gear ranges, look up the LS 5th gear ratio on that calculator - it might be just what you need, and it's basically the tallest gear you're going to find for that transmission.

blazzer

thnx for the help man!! gave me a lot to think about here. and solved a few issues already.
kudos.

makes sence about the straight cut. ill prbly stick to the helical.
thnx for the syncho tech link. seems like this may be a good option to rebuild.

you are right though about the "scary" about transmission work. i have a helms and haynes manual ironically enough, my issues is getting the transmission cracked open ad taken apart then not fully understanding on how to put her back together. ive done engine work just never tranny work... so a little intimidating.
... and yea that was one thing kinda pulling me to a shop was warranty.. but with warranty comes a heftier price..

thnx for the help though man. i will post up my findings etc, just in case for future people/searches really quite curious about why reverse is 100% locked out. made me wonder if there is a legit lockout in those trannies... but i had never heard of that.

blazzer

OH.. forgot to ask simply becasue i do not know and having searched, could not find an exact answer but, are all b-series tranny's gear's swappable to any "B" tranny?

like mix n match? maybe you answered that by saying use the calc?

jbpnoman

The way the transmission engages has a mechanical "kind of" lock-out to keep someone from going from 5 to R accidentally, but it's just the nature of how the transmission works - it's not physically possible to shift into R while moving.

Try this, though. Car stationary, parking brake up, foot on clutch. Shift from neutral, to 2, back to neutral, straight to R. Will it let you into reverse then?

The gears are mostly compatible, just stick within generation. I don't know if a cable gearset will fit on a hydraulic main or countershaft, but if I had to guess, I would say no.

blazzer

Ok, was not sure if a b tranny would have some sort of mechanical lockout that would prevent that, IF 5th-R did happen, so from what you said and me trying the N-2-n-r and no reverse engagement, im assuming something is pretty messed inside the tranny, let alone 3rd and 5th do grind when driving over 4000 rpm.

well reason i ask is about the "B" gear compatibility would be this gear ratio set given this is a mix from cable and hydro.. so figuring you are correct this probably would not work?

ys1(92-93gsr)3.307
2.105
1.459
1.107
ys1(92-93gsr) 0.875

FD= 4.53 OR 4.78

blazzer

what i wanted to do was:
4.53 FD
3.23oem
2.10oem
1.65
1.29
1.00 or 1.03 ( problem for highway is 5th is 74 miles at 6000 rpm. which seems over the top for DD highway

jbpnoman

Having a hard time getting into R is pretty normal in "worn out" Honda transmissions (mine does it, too), but a last-legs method is to shift from 2 to R. Something about the way it engages and disengages the shift forks and collars makes it work, I dunno

So assuming you have the USDM ITR S80 transmission, 75MPH in 5th should have you around 4000 RPM. The JDM ITR S80 is only 100 RPM higher at 75. What exactly are you trying to do with the transmission? Gearing for track/cone killer stuff, or drag strip stuff? The ITR S80 is already very well geared for both, but leans more towards track/cone killing. If you want better gas mileage out of it on the highway, just keep it as-is, and toss an LS S80 5th in there. You'll spin 3500 RPM @ 75.

blazzer

Well i want it to be geared more for track but also being decent for a dd for right now. i hate how long 5th is from 4th ( assuming that i do have a USDM ITR S80.)

from what i understand, please correct me if i am wrong but, but ys1 cable trannys can swap gears with hydro's? ( cable gear to hydro tranny?)

if this is the case i did notice the ys1 was a bit shorter then the s80
s80: 0.84
ys1: 0.87

looking around on synchro tech, inlinefour, passwordjdm & king motorsports.

the synchro tech FD seems to be the best for exactly what i need, but opinions are good to .... being

stock 1-4th 5th @ 0.87
FD=4.71
so 5th top end = 141 mph
so that would mean 75MPH @ 4300-4500 rpm??

so my thought was idealy for DD and mild track for right now:
ys1(92-93gsr)3.307 or stock 3.23
2.105
1.459
1.107
ys1(92-93gsr) 0.875
FD= 4.71

so i figured while the tranny is out and needs repair... do a few upgrades.. but atm, gear ratio's being an issue. and i cannot for my life find any aftermarket 5th gear ratio's lower then 1.00. eveything else is 1.00 and higher. which is great for track but on the highway i think would be awefull driving at 6000 rpm doing 75mph... 0_0.

so ideally the ys1 0.87 5th would be a little tighter + the 4.71 FD dropping top end, increasing acceleration, while maintaing a driveable highway speed by upping the rpms about 500 +/- 150 rpm's.

so if my math is correct stock: 75 miles @4000rpm top end
ys1 5th/4.71FD : 75 miles @ 4500 rpm.

so the overall being up to 8500 rpm

stock:-----------------------------------aftermarket/build
1st: 3.23 / 41.07mph---------------------1st: 3.23 / 38.36 OR(ys1 1st3.30@37.55mph
2nd: 2.105 / 63.01mph--------------------2nd: 2.105 / 58.56
3rd: 1.458 / 90.97-------------------------3rd: 1.458 / 84.99
4th: 1.107 / 119.82-----------------------4th: 1.107 / 111.93
5th: 0.848 / 156.42-----------------------5th: 0.875 / 141.61 (ys1 5th)
FD: 4.40----------------------------------FD: 4.71 (snychrotech fd)

thoughts opinions? possible mistakes i made?

94EG8

There's no tool for checking sleeves and gears, you just look at them if they're chewed up, replace. I do backyard rebuilds, I replace sleeves and gears when they need to be (which is almost always as far as sleeves go)

Yes that's correct. YS1 cable transmissions are basically a hydro transmission in a cable case.

jbpnoman

Not according to the FSM. Yes, you need to visually inspect them for damage, but you should (according to FSM rebuild procedure) measure both the gears as well as the sleeves with a micrometer.

blazzer

+1 for this

going to get her open tomorrow, will post up what the issue was for reverse gear. hopefully ti will help someone down the lines

Solster

cant see you hitting 5th on the track that often so with the 4.71 FD why not us the S1/Y1 5th.
it's listed as .742

so 8500 Redline on 205/45R16's

4.71 FD
and .742 5th = 74 Mph @ 3736 RPM

now I have a GSR YS1 with S1 5Th
that's 4.4 FD
.742 5Th = 74 Mph @ 3490 RPM
VS. YS1 5Th
.875 5th = 74Mph @ 4115 RPM

This allows me to get around 35MPG on the freeway

blazzer

hmmm that is interesting.

i decided against the 4.78 for now but im seriously debating a 4.53 FD seems like a batter ratio with a .742 from a gs-r 5th. while keeping the s80 1-4. makes 5th a little taller/longer from 4th BUT the trade out what it seem to be is 1-4 will be a little tighter with more acceleration with the 4.53 FD. thoughts on that?


(tranny update to, ripping her apart this weekend so ill post soon what the deally-o was/is.

94EG8

Y1/S1 5th doesn't fit a hydro trans/YS1 cable trans. You can use an LS 5th gear but it needs to be from a YS1 LS or hydro LS trans. It will usually make the mileage worse than the B16A 5th. Fuel mileage is a lot more throttle position dependent than RPM dependent. It also makes for a weird long shift from 4th to 5th, the one nice thing about it is it will be quieter on the highway.

blazzer

Noise is not my concern at all. that i can deal with. more concerned about a balanced ratio because of the final drive.

moving to a y80 5th while keeping the other gears stock, so my 5th will technically maintain the same ratio as a stock y80 5th but while using a shorter final drive.


so:

(4500 rpm or less is based on my rpm highway cruising speed and 100 rpm under vtec engagement)

205/50/r15

s80 stock @4500 rpm---------------s80/4.53fd/y80 5th @4500rpm
4.4 fd
3.23/21.74 mph>35 kph-------------3.23/21.12 mph>34 kph
2.10/33.36 mph>53 kph-------------2.10/32.4 mph>52 kph
1.45/48.46 mph>77 kph-------------1.45/46.78 mph>75 kph
1.10/63.43 mph>102 kph------------1.10/61.61 mph>99 kph
0.84/82.81 mph>133 kph------------0.78/87.44 mph>139 kph

speed difference/rpm drop 4-5th:-------------speed difference/rpm drop 4-5th:

19.26mph>31kph/ rpm drop= 1,049------------24.85mph>40kph/1,295

so clearly 4th to fith is going to be farther and slightly longer then stock s80 compared to a 4.53fd y80 5th.

1-4 will be shorter so technically tighter although the actual gear ratio's technically stay the same, just shorter the y80(.78) gear is there to keep the top end/max speed there for highway driving.
I feel like this means though going from 4th-5th i have to at least rev/drive 246rpm more minimum to keep the balance from under driving 4th to 5th. not a big deal but at 4500 rpm i should be doing 87 mph>139kph. this is a little tall for what i want but it does beat in my opinion ( and your guy's opinion is appreciated here) an s80 stock gears 1-5 with a 4.53fd

which would mean on a 4.53fd s80 5th im traveling @ 80.16mph>129 kph @4500 rpm which creates a speed difference and rpm drop of 18.64mph>30kph/1,047 rpm drop which from 4th to 5th overdrives me by 44 rpm. this 5th becomes shorter not longer.

and im considering this as well as my vtec activates @ 4500 rpm. so my goal is to not hit vtec while maintaining the best cruising speed and speed limit with out over driving the rpm's or to badly under driving the rpm's. under driving in my opinion is better. originally with the 4.78 it was close to 6000 rpm @ 75 mph, which is excessive for a DD

Simply i could chip my ecu and have vtec activate at a higher rpm. eventually yes i will do this. BUT because the transmission originally is having problem and it is apart, and overtime i want to build this and my build path, a 4.53 is perfect but my problem being for a DD was 5th, this setup above seems to fix it but opinions would be nice from you guys.

Solster

This a odd statement given that it takes more throttle for higher rpm's.

Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using IB AutoGroup

purgat0ry

iTrader: (3)

I can see where you're confused, but for example, if you're shifting too soon and end up in a high throttle low RPM position, you're going to have to give it more gas to get up to basic cruising speeds.

There is a sweet spot for shifting that most everybody hits without issue and this isn't a concern.

Now, on the highway, you've got cruise control locked in at that sweet 65mph mark and you're rolling around like a boss, you're obviously in 5th gear by this point and with a transmission geared for MPG at highway cruising means the engine doesn't need to work nearly as much to maintain its speeds (throttle closed more vs open); if you're geared for track and are cruising a couple thousand higher than you would otherwise, your engine is having to obviously work harder...

94EG8

Don't do that. You'll just end up with a dip in power before vtec. You're not likely to be cruising at much past 135km/h on the highway which should keep you just out of vtec.

It doesn't. At higher RPM (to a point) the engine is working a lot less hard with a nearly closed throttle. A lot of guys have swapped LS 5th in B16As and most of them got worse fuel mileage.

blazzer

which is what i kinda figured anyway (even with a 4.53 fd) i thought at most ill be going 130 but really no reason for me to be going over that, most limits anyways are either 110 or 120 km/h.

that is a good point though that i did not think of, being a power dip in the powerband.

so that setup, 4.53 fd with a .78 y80 5th, decent setup instead of the stock 4.4fd and .84 5th??

94EG8

I didn't even think they'd be that high, it's mostly 100km/h here with the odd 110km/h zone. I've never seen 120 here on the east coast.

If you want shorter gearing and still want to drive it on the highway compromises need to be made and this is probably as reasonable as you're going to get.

blazzer

ya, i live in alberta. calgary and edmonton highways are 110 and 120 km/h.

seems like it hey? best combination of fd and gears i can come up with, without getting serious in to a tranny build and well... not a race car yet hahahaha.

thnx for the help though guys.

once i get my tranny or deal sorted ill post an update about the issue.
always annoys me when someone post a problem in a way old thread but never what the solution of fix was so.. i intend to post.