StewieVX

My car 1992 Honda Civic VX (D15Z1) stumbles when driving at 40-50mph and then throws code 9. Then i think ECU goes into rich fuel mode and CEL stays on. I have lean burn Vtec-e engine and should activate lean burn.

I checked OMh at CYP and other sensors and it's within specs.

I changed to new dizzy, made sure it's correct one for my model.

Didn't check the ecu wiring for continuity but I think it's my ECU.

Should i check ignition and mechanical timing first? I will have to pay labor for this as i'm not mechanic so i'm wondering if i should throw a dice and go for ECU first. Any advise?

Former User

Add car information to the first post.

StewieVX

Thank you Ron. I have read few threads regarding this but i'm stuck between timing, dizzy or Ecu. I replaced dizzy with td-42u which is specific to vx and still it's happening. I also have new wires and spark plugs. Not sure if clogged or malfunctioning fuel injector could cause that? I think that's different code for FE.

When i bought the car car stumbled and then after few months it died and had it towed to closest mechanic and he said that he adjusted timing and compression was low in one of cylinders so he made few adjustments. He also installed new dizzy td-42u which is for vx specifically. I think dizzy died. He kept telling me my car is non-vtec engine so not sure if he did adjustments to non-vtec vs mine which is vtec-e engine. I see vtec solenoid so i know it's vtec. So now i don't know maybe it's timing but i checked 3 out 4 civics have same timing angle. Needless to say he didn't know much about this car so he might have made it worst. I recently checked Ohm on CYP plug and other 2 and they all are within specs 382Ohm.

My mpgs are lower then they should be so it's using rich fuel or pre-programmed setting, maybe not ECU, cause it's not working? Every tread leads to different outcome so i'm not sure myself Any help would be greatly appreciated and HI everyone i'm new.

HondaPartsHero

StewieVX

I had mechanic take value cover today and mechanical timing is set for d16z6 engine and not mine engine which is d15z1. It's off by one tooth from what we can tell.
Could this have been causing this issue and how do i/we make sure that timing is right after we move it? From what i understand light gun is only used for ignition timing

Rest in picture was checked and dizzy has 382 Omh on all connections including CYP and wires have resistance by ECU as well. Not sure how to check ECU but i guess that would be last step if mechanical timing does not do the job.

What do you guys think. Ron any thoughts on this? This mechanic is new so i want to makes sure what he told me makes sense?

TomCat39

The way to fix the mechanical timing is to bring the crank pulley to TDC (white mark away from the 3 marks grouped together) in the timing cover site. Then loosen the timing belt tensioner so you can slip the timing belt off the cam gear.

Once the belt is off the cam gear you can adjust so the two side marks on the cam gear line up to the arrows on the back timing cover like in the FSM sheet you posted for teh D15Z1. They are a little off of the head level. So with the Up point up and the two side marks in line with both side arrows in the back timing cover and the crank pulley white TDC mark in the Sight pointer, you can slide the timing belt back onto the cam gear.

Now spin the crankshaft Counter Clock Wise (CCW) so that about 3 or 4 teeth go onto the cam gear and tighten the tensioner bolt to be snug (don't reef on it just snug it down for now).

Now your rotate the crank 4-6 full revolutions CCW to settle the belt into place. The FSM manual has a typo on the 5th gen and says to turn the crankshaft clockwise, which is bad to do by the crank. The belt goes all wonky and you can smack valves etc. So make sure to crank the motor CCW the 4-6 turns to settle the belt. And by turns, I mean 4-6 full revolutions of the crank.

No you redo the timing belt tensioner process by loosening the tensioner bolt 180 degrees, spin the crank CCW so that 3 teeth get fed onto the cam gear and retighten the tensioner bolt to snug. Now you can torque the tensioner bolt to the 33 ft-lbs.

Now you spin the crank CCW for at least 2 full revolutions and bring the crank back to TDC. Now check that the cam gear is lined up as it should be. If the up is pointed down, turn the crank one more revolution back to TDC again and the cam gear should now be sitting in TDC home position with the UP pointed up and the two side marks in line with the back timing cover arrows on each side of the cam gear.

At this point you can clean up the valve cover gasket and all the mating surfaces with non chlorinated brake cleaner on a rag, re honda bond the corners of the gasket and put the valve cover back on.

Reconnect all your wires and your valve cover ground and now idle the engine up to full temp and short the service connector to set your ignition timing with a timing light on plug wire #1 to the middle of the 3 marks grouped together through the timing cover sights.

That should help your mileage and also the motor to run better.

StewieVX

Thank you guys for the info. I'm picking my car up today. He said he adjusted mechanical timing and changed dizzy as it supposedly dizzy was throwing code 9. I'm skeptical and I'll see. I'll let you guys know if it's solved. My mpgs need to jump by 5-8 mpgs per gallon in order for this to succeed. I know what this car use to do before cel9. We shall see. I know on cel9 vx runs on rich fuel instead of lean fuel like its suppose to.

P.S --- off topic.
Moderator i can not login or register threw website and can only use facebook to log in. Captcha even if correct would not let me register.

StewieVX

Guys thank you first and foremost. So the distributor was changed.
I tested for code 9 with paper clip and now i only get solid check engine light with clip in it but no check engine light without clip. What does that mean?
I hope that he didn't do something to ECU to get rid of code 9 wow....my first initial thought is that solid light is code 0 ????

OBD1 Trouble Codes:

Code 0 and 11 Electronic Control Module (ECM)
Code1 Heated oxygen sensor A
Code 2 Oxygen content B
Code 3 and 5 Manifold Absolute Pressure
Code 4 Crank position sensor
Code 6 Engine coolant temperature
Code 7 Throttle position sensor
Code 8 Top dead center sensor
Code 9 No.1 cylinder position sensor
Code 10 Intake air temperature sensor
Code 12 Exhaust recirculation system
Code 13 Barometric pressure sensor
Code 14 Idle air control valve or bad ECM
Code 15 Ignition output signal
Code 16 Fuel Injector
Code 17 Vehicle speed sensor
Code 19 A/T lock-up control solenoid
Code 20 Electric load detector
Code 21 V-TEC control solenoid
Code 22 V-TEC pressure solenoid
Code 23 Knock sensor
Code 30 A/T FI signal A
Code 30 A/T FI signal B
Code 41 Heated oxygen sensor heater
Code 43 Fuel supply system
Code 45 Fuel supply metering
Code 48 Heated oxygen sensor
Code 61 Front heated oxygen sensor
Code 63 Rear heated oxygen sensor
Code 65 Rear heated oxygen sensor heater
Code 67 Catalytic converter system
Code 70 Automatic transaxle
Code 71 Misfire detected cylinder 1
Code 72 Misfire detected cylinder 2
Code 73 Misfire detected cylinder 3
Code 74 Misfire detected cylinder 4
Code 75 Misfire detected cylinder 5
Code 76 Misfire detected cylinder 6
Code 80 Exhaust recirculation system
Code 86 Coolant temperature
Code 92 Evaporative emission control system

Former User

Be happy. This^ is what happens when no CEL codes are thrown.

Click the CEL Codes link in my signature.

StewieVX

Thank you guys. One more question. My shift indicator light use to come on to shift gears when rpms are too high to change gear for fuel economy. I reset ECU with 7.5 backup fuse after maintenance was done. Since then my shift light indicator does not come up. Even if i drive it up to 3-4k rpms it does not come on and it should. That is why i was asking about ECU state with just solid light. Just want to make sure something didn't go hay wire with ECU as this worries me. Not sure it takes ECU a while to learn after reset or is it instantaneous? I already drove around 20 miles.





If i may offer some advice for anyone that has or will have this issue in future, 70% of the time it will be your distributor. Mine i bought from this one company from florida and they specialize in dizzys but 2x i got bad dizzy. I mean maybe they re manufactured cx or dx dizzzy (td-41u) with sensors of 41 and marked it up with td-42u. They are ISO certified so i excluded dizzy after twice change. The current dizzy is 100% new. Get new dizzy not re-manufactured from reputable source. This was going on for me for over year and with frustration. I will report on mpgs if anyone cares but they should go up significantly unless ECU is in limp mode now. I won't know until i drive for half or more tank. The shift indicator light worries me a bit cause it use to work perfectly even with bad dizzy. Thats odd to me unless ECU takes like few days to learn from scratch. As far as i know ECU should learn instantaneously but i could be wrong. I just hope my ECU now is not in limp mode, meaning car is bypassing it. MGPS will tell me for sure. Any final thoughts on this?

Ron...i click on cel codes but i don't see anything i can click on like on. If you can post direct link i will click on it with pleasure. Sorry i'm new to forum so if you can guide i would appreciate it.
BTW i want to congratulate on this forum. I find everything here when i google. Great forum.

TomCat39

https://honda-tech.com/honda-civic-d...lists-1901557/

In his signature it says "CEL Codes" and is a link that takes you to the above.

It explains that when you have no code and you jumper the service connector, you get a solid CEL light to indicate it's in service mode. This is when you can set ignition timing etc.

There is two things you can check for the shift light. One is the bulb in the gauge cluster. The other is on the passenger side kick panel, you can pull down the carpet and get your ECU Pxx number. Mine is a P06 as I have the non vtec 16 valve 1.5 liter.

Post up what ECU is currently in the car.

StewieVX

Thanks tomcat and Ron. When i picked up the car it was working, then i did reset of ECU as i wanted to make sure ECU was reset after service, which is what is recommended in service manual. It seems that after i did ECU reset it stopped working. It is raining now here today day later i mean and in AM it was working intermediately but it would go on at weird times, not what it use to. Maybe it's moisture but i didn't notice that before. I'll check the bulb but i doubt unless i burned it with ECU reset (possible) or maybe rusty connections which i didn't notice before but when moist/rain maybe it affects it. Maybe i just noticed it cause i just fixed dizzy. I'm hoping my lean burn is still working and that shift indicator light not working worries me lean burn is out, meaning ECU is in limp mode but i hope it's ok like Ron said. After all no codes should mean ECU ok. How is code 0 thrown then? Keeping my fingers crossed. My ECU is VX federal 49 states. Here is actual picture of it.

P07-A00 federal ecu

Former User

Read info at the CEL codes link --> Code 0 = CEL is ON both with and without the service connector jumped.

And as TomCat said, first check the shift light bulb. This is easily done by swapping the shift bulb with the known good CEL bulb.

TomCat39

Looks good, that's the VX ecu.

And since it's working intermittently, the bulb seems to be in working order.

It sounded like you took it to a mechanic to do the work and just wanted to be sure the ECU wasn't switched out.

I've heard that it can take up to 6 weeks for the ECU to "learn" of changes when you make changes when you don't reset the ECU to be in relearn mode.

It's quite probable now that you've reset the ECU to be in relearn mode that it will take a bit of time for it to rebuild it's modification tables.

Not really sure but that may very well be affecting the "recommended" shift patterns for lean burn.

It can't rebuild the tables instantly, it has to wait until it hits each cell of the table and use sensor readings to determine a variance to the stock tables.

I think the more you drive it the more the light will return to operation.

StewieVX

Alright thanks guys. That makes me feel a little better. I've also heard that when it's cold or moist lean burn does not work therefore that indicator light won't come on. Not sure if there is any truth to it. I will check the light first.

I didn't check ECU after mechanic but i will. I doubt he would do this. The pic is before i will be able to tell right away. I was more worried in term maybe he cut some cable to some ecu sensor or some wires in ecu but it also may be moisture. I'll see on warm day in day or so and check the bulb. Ron thanks for IACV sticky as that's next for me. I have tiny 50 rpms idle. Thanks guys for help. I will update on this in soon, latest in two days.

StewieVX

Hi guys so i checked ECU it's same so no worries there. I checked SIL and lights up when i turn on key in ignition so bulb is good and i saw it today light up very briefly but it's almost impossible for this light to appear even at high 3-4k rpms. I cleaned out IACV and i have nice steady idle at 650 which is what manual says so success there.

I took a car for a spin and car has lost hp in my opinion even in 3rd gear it sluggish after dizzy change. Mechanic also said he adjusted mechanical timing by one tooth. He said dizzy was installed with correct angle 16 degrees but he didn't have timing light t so he didn't do that. I can feel slight detonations of engine inside the cabin but while idle not while driving.

I was thinking maybe loss of power and that slight detonation at idle could it be do to wrong ignition or mechanical timing? Would ECU light up CEL if timing of either would be incorrect? Maybe ECU doesn't see lean burn so SEL doesn't come on due to one of those timings being incorrect? Any thought guys?

tamboo

sounds like it's still off one tooth to me.
what brand dizz? there's plenty of craptastic parts out there.
could have a dicey coil or icm in it.

Advanced Ignition Troubleshooting - Team Integra Forums - Team Integra

TomCat39

You have to get the ignition timing set.

You can't just put teh dizzy in and hope it is timed the same. Especially if you changed the mechanical timing.

You need a new mechanic. Even us home amateur backyard mechanics keep a timing light for these old cars.

If you are detonating, then don't drive it until the mechanical and ignition timing are done properly.

I don't trust your mechanic already.

TomCat39

Been busy this week so I missed informing you right away, admin attempted a fix. Please report back if there still is a problem.

Thanks.

StewieVX

Hi guys. First i appreciate everyone's help in this issue of mine. Here is an update after a week.

Well CEL is gone, SEL is working but almost never comes on. It's not a bulb for sure.
I'm not an expert but engine IMO is now working way worst then before i gave it to mechanic to repair the issue. He fixed the issue but i'm now wondering if this wasn't some kind of hack instead of fix.

Reason i say this is cause IMO i feel detonation(s) in engine. Not sure if it's one cylinder or more. Its slight but it's there. Also from exhaust pipe one can feel burst of air systematically coming out of pipe. I feel that engine now shakes a bit and is louder like you can hear valves ringing or making some noise. Not sure how to describe this.

I went to another mechanic that is ASE certified and i know he's good cause i used him in the past and he checked it out and he said it's fine and that maybe ignition is slightly off but he didn't have timing light so we decided i'm gonna come back in few days.

IMO engine works like crap comparing to how it use to operate before mechanical timing adjustment. Maybe he disconnected somehow EGR, although ECU is not throwing any codes at all.
I feel it worked like a swiss watch before but was throwing CEL code.

Could this be do to ignition timing or does this sounds like something else?

BTW i was thinking maybe his hack involved in changing ignition timing to really retarding it so CEL would not come on. That would explain why SEL never comes on cause something is off. Also could he have damaged something while adjusting mechanical timing?

I will have him adjust ignition timing but my instinct is telling me it won't be that, but was thinking if that does not work i have three options.

1. I found garage shop that works on A LOT of EG (VX) hatchback type hondas. They are more performance oriented but they know EG very well.

2. Take it to Honda dealership. My reservation here is they're super expensive and i have no guarantee they will be any different then EG shop btw as this car is 92 and last time their mechanics might have saw 92 civic was maybe 12-15 yrs ago or not at all as they're just not around anymore. It all depends on individual mechanic yes? I'm thinking their bill will be $1000+ for which i'm thinking it could get brand new engine, which brings me to next point.

3. Buy brand new engine for $1000 + 200 shipping + 400 install ? and have it installed.
I spend too much money already on brakes and other parts to let this car go at this point. I need to drive it to the ground at this point. I bought it for $3500+3500 in repairs, parts, tires etc.
I'm writing this car and repair off of taxes and also gas savings is paying for repairs but it hasn't been fun as you can see.

Again i really appreciate your guys input. I must say this car has been nightmare for me. It's always something, always. It has been a lemon imo.

TomCat39

I would definitely go with the EG shop. One they will have all the tools for these older engines, including a timing light.

And they will have all the specs and know exactly where everything should be.

They will also know how to test things like the EGR etc properly to rule out bad parts and get you back up to the high MPG you should be at.

That's where I would be at if I were in your shoes.

StewieVX

Thanks Tom. One more thing. Year and a half ago when this car died and i towed it to this other mechanic he said that one of cylinders has lower then it should pressure but after his adjustments minus CEL light engine worked great minus cel light for dizzy. Maybe it also has blown cylinder or something i really don't know. Just thought i would add this.

TomCat39

Low compression had crossed my mind but I was operating with the assumption your mechanics already did a compression test and all 4 tested out above minimum with minor variance.

A low compression cylinder can be the end all to your engine.

At the very least would be a poor man rebuild of taking the piston out, doing a back yard hone (assuming the cylinder wall isn't scraped up etc) and putting new rings on the one piston and putting it back together.

The hard part is the clean up especially if you don't take out the crank. I suppose you could plastic wrap the crank and sponge bath the cylinder with soap and water then a sponge rinse and re-oil....

But really, that is FAR from the proper way to do it and a full rebuild would be what is recommended.

You do have a 92 VX so it is worth more than other 5th gen civics especially as the price of gas goes up. But the 2000+(minimum) for a rebuild is what you'd be looking at.....

If the body is good and you keep it all stock, you could fetch between 3500-5000 as the VX is a rare bird.

StewieVX

Thanks Tomcat. I wanted to check if spark plug(s) gap is not causing the misfire i am referring to so i took cables out one by one to check spark plug gap. So one spark plug on cyl 1 i think (the first one from driver side) had bigger gap then it should have .50in but it should be .43in. I adjusted it but i also changed all spark plugs to my previous good onces i had NGK too to test. No change tho but the spark plugs that i was running at are toasting for some reason? That wasn't evident to me prior to dizzy change but I also didn't change them in 1.5 yrs either. Any idea why and is this bad for engine or spark plug only or both and why? Thank you again for your help and expertise. The toasting i'm referring to is at white portion of spark plug, brown burn looking like ring. The black carbon at bottom of the tip is normal I assume ?

TomCat39

Actually overall, that spark plug you pictured looks pretty good, not heavy deposits of any sort, burning pretty clean, has the fuel ring on the porcelain.

Not sure how long those plugs were in. The only portion that may be of concern is the brown ring on the wire side of the porcelain. If the plug has been in a long time it's pretty normal, if it's been in only a week, I'd be asking if the tips of the plugs wires are wet when you pull them out.

This may help you understand what you are looking for in the plug:

NGK Spark Plugs USA