Turbotype

So, I figured a separate thread would be appropriate...I just picked up a 98 HX with 126k on it...It was serviced at Honda and it's definitely well taken care of, however couple things I was looking for answers on....

When I downshift, when it's not quite into gear yet, it sounds like the trans is whining...It's happens a tad from 4th to 3rd and really noticeable from 3rd to 2nd...I know the fluid needs to be changed (clutch and trans), could that be why? It doesn't grind or anything else odd

Last but not least, the car seems sluggish under 3k, so i'm in process of replacing ignition and air filter, but it also feels like the ac kicks on and off, but it's definitely off....Like when I was on the highway, it feel like resistance like ac, so my speed would slow for a sec and then it would feel like it "freed up" shortly after that...

Thanks in advance for the help...Always a few "bugs" to work out of a brand used car haha

dizzyroc88

since you just bought it i would just do a good tune up then re-evaluate your situation..

spark plugs, spark plug wires, cap & rotor, fuel filter, air filter, new fluids, and good sea foam treatment. should clear out your sluggishness . as for the tranny? does the sound go away when you push the clutch or does it stay consistant

Turbotype

Yea the sound goes away when I push the clutch in, so is that the throw out bearing? I checked the ignition, changed plugs, cap and rotor are new...Car was maintained according to Honda's servicing schedule...I was shown receipts for it...Fluids are definitely in need to changing and i'll do a fuel filter as well...I've never done a sea foam, but I've heard good things

dizzyroc88

sounds like its throw out bearing.. but if it is it should do this is in all gears not just from 3rd to 4th (maybe thats just when you noticed it).. and it could be in gear or in neutral and it should still make the noise. nothing to stress about it. change it out when you get the time..

when you say you checked the ignition what did you do? did you pull out a timing light and check the your pulley marks or what..? sounds like your a bit retarded lol (the car not you). try advancing the timing a tad and see if that clears it out.. do all the little things first before you start throwing unnecessary money and parts at it

virgineg6

hxs come with vtec-e engines (economical) d16y5 if im not mistaken they run with 1 intake 1 exhaust valve at low rpms to get better fuel economy thats the sluggishness u feel

dizzyroc88

it should still have a smooth power band if everything is in order.

94EG8

Nope, transmission input/mainshaft bearing. Throwout bearing will make noise when the clutch pedal is depressed.

dizzyroc88

isnt that what he just said or am i not reading something right here

94EG8

Your not reading something right. If he pushed the clutch in and it was making noise that would be a throwout bearing (the only time it turn is when you depress the clutch and it pushed up against the fingers on the pressure plate.

dizzyroc88

Did he not say that when he pushes it it stops ?

94EG8

Yes. Which would make it the input/mainshaft bearing in the transmission thats bad.

dizzyroc88

Well I'm not sure how your throwout bearings go bad but mine when they are worn they whine, ring, sing or whatever. Until I start to push the clutch. When the clutch pedal is "depressed" or pusheddown it's nice and quite because there is pressure shutting up the bearing. Which were similar symptoms to what this guy was describing but either way it's hard to diagnose something like by just sayid I hear a noise with out being there.

And if you got chatter or whining while your pushing the clutch down you either have a nasty unsprung clutch or you got some other issues

virgineg6

so what ur saying is u shouldnt feel an increase in power when it goes from 2 valves to all 4? u shouldnt feel vtec crack either then?!!

Turbotype

Yea, when I push the clutch in, the sound goes away...I ordered a clutch kit, which I believe includes the input bearing as well, so I should have all those bases covered....

The "lag" is definitely from the Vtec-e, I didn't understand it was a low rpm engagement, so it made sense when I tested throttle percentage down low...

One more question I forgot to include....It takes a long time to get to operating temp, and it seems to vary in the cool range....Is it possible for the thermostat to get stuck open or is my cooling system just that good? I'm worried when the temps drop, cuz I don't want to not have heat!! lol

94EG8

This does not work the way you think it does. If the throwout bearing is bad it will only make noise when you depress the clutch, other than that it doesn't turn, it just sits there. Believe me i've dealt with this a lot, rebuilt several D-series transmissions and installed a lot of clutches.

dizzyroc88

sorry bud.. but i gotta disagree with you... MAYBE theres multiple ways of one going bad and thats the experience you have had...

but where i come from bad throwout bearings make noise when you are not pushing the clutch just the same..

i know very well how the clutch system works. thank you. ive been in this game for too long now and ive probably been messing around with honda's well before you were. my experience spans a bit more past just D series engines.

vitamin_c95

i thought when you push the clutch and hear noise its TOB, if you hear a noise without the clutcj pushed its a pilot bearing/bushing? I cant speak for any other bearings. Im still trying to learn

94EG8

I'm only going to say this once, you're wrong, thats as blunt as I can be. To the OP, go ahead and replace your throwout bearing but I can guarantee you you'll be pulling that transmission back off to replace the ISB.

That is correct.

Turbotype

Well regardless, the IPB comes in a clutch kit, so both bearings are going to be replaced....I've considered a lighten flywheel too (for gas mileage)...Thoughts?

94EG8

ISB doesn't come with a clutch, you're thinking of the pilot bearing. ISB is in the transmission itself.

B18C5-EH2

This makes my head hurt.

First of all if the tranny is noisy at idle, but then the noise goes away when you press the clutch all the way in then it's going to usually be internal bearing(s) noise. I say "usually" because I have seen a bad clutch throwout/release bearing be noisy at idle with clutch out, and shut up once the clutch is pushed in. The thing about a bad clutch throwout/release bearing is that you can usually feel it in the clutch pedal itself as you slowly push the clutch towards the floor. My smart money would be on the internal bearings inside the transmission though, if I had to bet money on it, or warranty a customer's car against noise if I were pulling the tranny to check for the noise.

There are 5 sealed bearings on the ends of the mainshaft and countershaft, and in order to replace any of them you must remove the tranny, then split it, use a gear puller, remove old bearings, press on new bearings, etc. If I go into a tranny I don't just do the one input shaft bearing - I do all 5 of the shaft bearings.

PICS ARE CLICKABLE AND TAKE YOU TO EXPLODED DIAGRAMS WITH CORRESPONDING PARTS LIST WITH PRICING AND PART NUMBERS

#4 (what is commonly called input shaft bearing, or ISB) and #5 seen here - they press into the clutch housing, but technically the main and countershafts sit in them as well:



This is the countershaft, or pinion shaft as some call it. Note the two bearings stacked on it's end, #13 and #14. I have personally found #13 to be the noisiest of all trans bearings from the years I've worked at my job managing a Honda/Acura only service facility:



Here is the mainshaft. #13 here is also on the end of the mainshaft. It too can cause noise.



Like I said if you're going into the transmission it's just silly to pick and choose one or two bearings IMO since you're already in there. I'd get all 5, and while you're at it pick up the mainshaft seal (#7 in 1st pic), left axle seal (#6 in 1st pic), the right axle seal seen here as #16:



Also get the shifter shaft seal (#21 in this pic)



...and if you want to be really thorough you'll spin up the diff bearings and replace those if they feel the slightest bit grainy, or have play:



I'd also like to point out that even the best clutch kits do not include the ISB. the best clutch kits include:

Clutch disc
Clutch pressure plate (also can be called clutch cover)
Release bearing (also can be called throwout bearing)
Pilot bearing for flywheel
Clutch alignment tool

www.clutchcityonline.com actually has some good pricing, but if you look hard enough you'll find cheap clutch kits all over. I'd try to stick with Exedy/Daikin since they are the OEM manufacturer for Honda.

B18C5-EH2

Sorry I went off on the transmission tangent without mentioning the "sluggish" feeling.

Diagnosing hesitations over the internet is next to impossible. I try to check things that don't cost money first, and don't require parts swapping, and then start looking at routine maintenance items to replace, and go further if necessary.

1. Check to see if your check engine light bulb primes when you turn the key into the position, but don't crank the engine

This establishes that your check engine light even works. Once you know this you can assume that no check engine light means no problem codes, BUT!!! I never assume that anyways. Old codes could be stored, or codes can be pending but not causing the light to come on YET so I'd scan the codes with an actual OBD2 scan tool. If you don't know someone with this tool go to Auto Zone and have them do a free OBD2 scan. If any "P" codes show write them down, but IGNORE their description of the code(s) as 99% of the time their descriptions read wrong, and they end up selling you crap you don't need.

Get the "P" codes (if any) and post them here for us to check for you, or Google the code numbers and add "1998 Civic HX" and see what you get. Auto Zone scanners are good for retrieving the code numbers, and nothing more.

2. Check timing

This confuses people because there's actually two types of "timing" that need to be checked. The ignition timing is the easier of the two to have checked so long as you have a timing light. If you cannot get the ignition timing close to specs with the full range of distributor adjustments then you likely have the timing off at the cam/crank or what we call timing belt timing.

To check cam/crank timing you need no special tools, but you do need to know exactly how to check this. I can post the actual charts with the timing marks/diagrams for you tomorrow from work, but a rough description is:

- Set the engine at TDC by lining up the TDC mark on the crank pulley (the WHITE one) with the tit on the lower timing cover

- Remove upper timing cover (will likely require removal of valve cover unless you want to pry the upper cover out and risk damage) and check to see if the cam timing mark is lined up properly (I have to double check your D16Y5 cam timing mark to see how it aligns)

If all the timing marks are lined up, and good, you could always perform a valve adjustment while you've got the valve cover off. Click HERE for a nice write-up on how adjust valves on a 6G Civic. Make sure you get the proper valve lash settings for your HX engine first if you attempt this.

After checking codes, and timing if all of it is good then I'd start looking at stuff like tune items, etc. Also if I recall from memory your HX has EGR - exhaust gas recirculation - system that can actually have stopped up EGR ports in the intake manifold. Typically this should throw a check engine code (P0401) but sometimes it doesn't, but it causes a slight stumble in low rpm under load. I'm kind of crippled without my work PC programs to see if there is a mechanical vacuum test for clogged ports on your HX, but you should be able to simply remove the vacuum hose from the egr valve and apply vacuum to the valve, and see if the engine stumbles or not. Stumbling at idle with EGR under vacuum is actually good and means EGR ports are clear, and if the engine idle doesn't change at all with EGR under vacuum then our ports are clogged and need to be cleaned.

Can you file all of this under too much information?

BlackDeuceCoupe

I drove a stock HX for 185k miles. What you're describing is normal.

HXs have very tall gearing. To make them go fast, you need to come off the line WFO and redline it in every gear aka "drive it like its stolen." If you do this, it'll scare the **** out of you. You can usually get a car-length ahead of your opponent, in every gear, because you don't have to shift as often. The rest of the time, it's rather sluggish at all RPM. And, in a race, you'll never get out of 3rd gear - guaranteed. LoL!

The way to get around this is to swap the tranny out with an EX box. An EX tranny, bolted up to a HX motor, will give you a totally different experience!

The AC *feeling* you're getting on the highway is VTEC-E kicking in n' out of economy mode. I used to describe it as *feeling* like a lockup torque converter (on a slush box) clutching in and out. But, your analogy is equally valid.

Without getting into it too much...

HXs have (almost) laboratory-grade O2 sensors in them. When you're cruising down the freeway, get up to speed, slack off the throttle, and so forth -- VTEC-E will sense this. It will pull the pins (disengage) one of the intake valves on each cylinder.

This will cause the incoming gas to mad swirl in the combustion chambers -- and, at the same time, it will lean out the air/fuel mixture beyond what a normal engine needs. This is how you get the crazy mileage.

Now, as soon as you start pressing down on the gas pedal (even a little) -- VTEC-E will go out of economy mode. It will click your intake valves back in, richen the air/gas mixture, blah, blah, blah. When this happens, you will *feel* and hear the difference.

And, as soon as you slack off the throttle, it will go back into economy mode again.

Kind of weird, but very ingenious on Honda's part. Basically, it's an electronic version of the old CVCC compound vortex engine, without the pre-combustion chamber.

Turbotype

Crikey!! So what do you mean by "feel" as you push it down...I'll test it out today...If the bearing(s) are bad in the trans, I'd be more inclined to just get a different d-series tranny for cheap, cuz it'd cost me more in time and money than just swapping it out....But for only 126k with good upkeeping, this sounds a bit out of left field that it would be internal trans work at this mileage...I guess anything is possible, but that would suck cuz then it could be any of the bearings like B18 said :-/

B18C5-EH2

Okay not to be argumentative, but here's where I'm coming from:

I have worked at my current Honda/Acura only repair shop for 10 years. I have seen a decade's worth of customers with noisy D trannies. I have owned numerous D series Hondas, and have had countless close friends/family, own D series Hondas. When I say the internal transmission bearings are likely your noise it's based on having personally experienced/seen it for myself on transmissions with as low of mileage as 70K. My best friend's 2000 Civic DX tranny was literally roaring very loudly at 83K, but his first symptoms started at around 60K.

I'm not basing my input non "my boy heard that his boy had bad tranny bearings..." - this comes from a lot of experience with this exact issue.

If you choose to buy a "cheap D tranny" to fix your issue you will likely be no better off in terms of fixing your noise.

I detest the crappy long HX gearing, so if I were you I'd find an EX or 92-95 Si tranny and put all new bearings/seals in THAT tranny since IMO dropping money into an HX box is a waste, unless of course you want top mpg at the cost of any version of acceleration.