live4soccer7

I'm burning oil, especially noticeable on startup.

How can I determine if it is coming from the rings or if it is residual oil that has leaked past the valve stem seals while the car was off and it's burning that oil that is sitting on top of the piston during startup?

Another symptom that it exhibits every once in a while is a rough startup. It has only done this maybe 5 times in the last 5-6 years. I'll start it and it will idle rough. I'll shut it down and then start it back up again and it'll idle perfectly fine. It just did this again a few days back. Any ideas on that?

The other thing I've considered is something with the PCV valve causing all of these issues.

Honestly, I'm sure it could probably use a engine rebuild, it has 293k on it. It runs great and I'm still getting 60+ mpg in the summer. The weather has started getting colder and the mpg has dipped down to about 50, but it does that every year. It loves the warmer weather!

I was hoping to get a few more years out of it before having to rebuild the engine. I only drive 5-7k a year, so not too unrealistic.


Let me know what you guys think! I appreciate any and all input.

civic402lx

2 test.
compression
Leak down

Go do it.

Sloturd

Probably valve stem seals, as far as the rebuild its all about consumption, how much how fast.

live4soccer7

Thanks!

Is it possible to replace the valve stem seals on the D15Z1 without removing the head?

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

There are several methods, but none of them are very easy. Compressed air, and a special tool will get the job done (use the smaller tool in the LIsle 36050 kit).

BUT......First you definitely want to do a compression and leakdown test. If all your numbers come back good, THEN you look at replacing the valvestem seals. If the numbers are bad, then you need to get other things fixed before wasting effort on valvestem seals. These tests will help determine if you need a valve adjustment, head-gasket, valve-job, or even piston rings.

Also, if you are burning a lot of oil, you will want to check your catalytic converter and your O2 sensor. If these are fouled up, performance will suffer.

live4soccer7

I completely agree with that. I will do a leakdown and a compression test on it in the next couple weeks or so. I did a valve adjustment probably 6-9 months ago. They are spot on now

It's NOT burning a crazy amount of oil, but more than it should and figured if it were the valve seals then I'll replace them and really if anything much else specifically tied to the motor mechanics then I'd pull the motor and do a rebuild since it has 300k on it. I'd rather do that than dick around with the head, valves etc... just to have the rest of the motor needing looked at before too long since it is a decently high mileage motor. The tests will tell the story though.

Thanks for the input on the tooling as well

Relic1

crude way to quickly check for bad valve stem seals:
leave car sit overnight, start up car. Note amount of smoke
let car idle for 30 seconds, turn off car.
wait 30 seconds, start car, Note amount of smoke.
if the smoke from the first start is noticeably more than the second, the valve seals are likely the cause.
this is far from 100% accurate but it's a indicator that the seals are allowing oil past them overnight then burning at startup, which does not happen on the second start up.

As stated a leakdown and a compression test are the best methods to go with for real indicators of the issue.

also, the O2 sensor may not need replacement due to oil usage, the L1H1 of the VX is much more oil tolerant than the standard O2 sensor in hondas.

live4soccer7

That would pretty much explain the symptom to a T.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

If you are going to do stem seals, you need to do the following:
- remove valvecover
- loosen or remove timing belt
- remove distributor
- fully loosen all 16 valve tappets
- remove cam caps & complete rocker assembly
- remove cam-gear & camshaft
- remove spark plugs

- set TDC for a given cylinder and attach compressed air @ 40psi
- use smaller Lisle tool to release keepers & retainer (do 1 valve at a time)
- use pliers (or special tool) to remove old valve stem seal
- Install new valve stem seal with 10mm 12pt deep socket (or special tool)
- use smaller Lisle tool to install keepers & retainer
- Repeat previous 4 steps on other 3 valves, then move to next cylinder

You will probably want to replace the following:
- Valvecover gasket set
- CamCap o-rings (if applicable)
- cam seal
- Distributor o-ring

You will also need to do a full valve adjustment after your done.

There are videos on Youtube too. This one I've seen before using rope (which is more difficult) instead of compressed air...

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

Also, I bought this valve seal installer which is pretty nice. Fits right over the valve stem and is the perfect shape to push on the valve seal's metal shoulder instead of the rubber seal itself (no possible damage). Not bad for $18.

mk378

Have someone follow you in another car on a test drive. If there is oil smoke constantly, and it gets worse when you floor it and keeps coming out as long as you have it floored, the rings are bad. I would expect worn out rings with that many miles. That's not to say the valve seals aren't leaking as well. You should consider a complete rebuild.

mountainEG6

In my experience with well used Honda and Toyotas most oil consumption and compression related issues are typically in the head. The lower ends of the D series engines are durable and when taken care of and not abused they wear very well. Renting or using a bore scope to check out the cylinder walls can tell you a lot if you do not have easy access to a leak down tester. Personally if the bottom looks good I would pull the head and have it refreshed.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

Bore-scope....

For $20 on Amazon you can get lighted USB cameras (endoscopes) that include multiple angled screw-on mirrors. Probably even better.

TomCat39

You can actually make this tool for cheap. If you have an old compression tester that fits your spark plug tubes, all you have to do is change out the gauge on the tube to an air compressor quick fitting.

It's how I got my pneumatic valve holder.

One word of advise if you are planning on going this route to do your valve seals. Buy everything you will need to do a head gasket job. Don't open the head gasket but make sure you have it on hand.

The reason I say this is, if you accidentally mess up like forgetting to put a piston to TDC and you drop a valve half way through the job, the head has to come off.

You can ask me how I know....

Accidents can easily happen in the process and it's better to be prepared for the worst case value and return everything when it doesn't happen, then it is to buy on the fly everything after.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

By "Special Tool" I meant the Lisle tool that removes & installs the keepers.

mk378

I once used the technique where you put the end of a rope in the cylinder through the spark plug hole and turn the crank to push the piston up against the rope and the valves. This holds the valves up while replacing the seals. It didn't help, the rings were bad.

Stuff rags into the oil return holes so you don't drop stuff (especially valve keepers) into the oil pan. Have some extra keepers on hand anyway. A strong magnet helps to handle them.

TomCat39

Hahaha, that is a handy tool too.



Unfortunately, you can't just buy the smaller one by itself like you can the bigger one.

Only the smaller one works on our Honda's but makes life way easier for valve spring keeper removal and install.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

Actually you can. And they are even cheap. I will look up the part#'s and post some links.

TomCat39

When I was shopping for them up here in Canada, they only had the large one or the dual set available. But that was over 2 years ago now.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

Looks like $14 for each half plus $7 shipping from JBToolSales.com. You might even save a dollar or two on ebay with free shipping options.

Lisle 36740: https://www.jbtoolsales.com/lisle-36...ndle-assembly/
Lisle 36440: https://www.jbtoolsales.com/lisle-36...per-installer/

I even considered buying an extra handle/extractor to cut short for working on cramped V6 engines where there is no room for long tools.

civic402lx

Smaller one of the tool. You dont have to buy the kit with both larger and smaller.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000P0ZJIS/_encoding=UTF8?coliid=IRTPDQJP5UOTM&colid=7284XPZ2 WR7K
$30shipped for the smaller one.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

^THAT is the BIGGER one (3 knurled stripe handle and knurled installer). DON'T BUY IT! Same one I bought and it DOESN'T work on Honda heads with limited clearance. Also it doesn't put keepers back in very easily on our small 5.5mm valve stems.

The handle with 2 knurled strips and the installer with no knurles is the one you want/need for working on Hondas.

live4soccer7

wow. thanks guys for all the replies!

I'm sure it definitely could use a rebuild. I've owned it for quite a while now and take great care of it with all regular maintenance done. My train of thought is if the stems are leaking, which I expect then that'll take care of a good portion of the oil burning. I'm fine with a little burn, that's expected with motors as they get more use on them. I'll pull it and rebuild it when the rings are burning too much oil for my liking.

Is the compressed air to help hold the valves up or what? You guys think the rope in the cylinder or the compressed air?

TomCat39

That's exactly the problem I ran into up here in Canada. I bought the larger one and even with trying to modify it, it didn't work.

At the time I was forced to buy the double set, figured the larger one would be good if I ever worked on V8's.

I wasn't able to find the part number for just the small one, thank you for providing that.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

Yes, the compressed air is to hold up the valves, just like the rope. 40psi at the regulator is plenty to pop the keepers out.

People say the rope is safer because you can't possibly drop a valve....but it is definitely more difficult. 1 you have to find a rope of the right size that won't leave fuzz all over your cylinders. 2 you have to feed it in a circle somehow. 3 the piston will not be at TDC so it could possibly start to walk back down the bore as you knock your keepers out (the rope is what you are pushing against to separate the retainer from the keepers). Might be better have someone holding the crank while you work.

I've only personally used the compressed air method and at 40psi I wasn't ever opening any valves. If the valves come off their seats even slightly, you will know immediately by the sound of more air escaping.

BTW: This job requires a lot of air. My small Craftsman hotdog compressor was cycling on about once every minute (depends on how well the cylinders seal).