T3KNiQe

You forgot one important thing, rod bearings. Out of "Ls" b16a and b18c rod bearings the b18c are the best bearings( used in the b16b and b18c5/6/7 type R's ), then the b16a bearings are second best, then the crappiest are the "Ls" bearings. A lot of people who don't do any bottom end work and just "slap" a VTEC head on, the "Ls" rod bearings will start to flake away in no time and you basically destroy your crank. On any bottom end build always use b18c rod bearings, apparently they hold 50% more oil in between the bearing and the crank as apposed to the b16a rod bearing!!!

ltrkstr2k

i agree 100%

Dasfinc

I think that was mentioned in one of the 2 'how to build a proper ls/vtec' threads, but the more RIGHT information like this posted, the higher the chance someone will read it and understand, Thank you!

I've also read numerous times that you want to use ARP or comparable rod BOLTS as well to help hold the LS rods together.

Thank you, I think there needs to be a 'forum tutorial' for H-T before you are allowed to join, forcing people to use the search and FAQ section multiple times before they are allowed to even post......

egH22coupe

AWESOME!!!! TONS OF HELP!!!

Westtz

Thanks for the write-up! I appreciate this. I'll keep this as reference in the long run!


Good stuff!

MHDesigns

Good write up. Sounds a little hater-ish but good write up none the less

Ron Burgandy

iTrader: (1)

A built LS bottom end + gsr head = good time now. That's what it's all about in the world of honda racing. I got into hondas because they are cheap to fix, and cheap to go fast.

If I had intentions of my motor lasting me 200k miles I wouldn't be on this site, and I wouldn't touch my motor.

This write up gets a failing grade from me on the sole basis that it comes from a biased angle. It definitely had a "hater" feel to it, which is totally hypocritical being that the whole purpose of this site, for years, has been to assist honda enthusiast make their cars go fast, look good, and be unique. Honda-tech is, and has always been about testing whats possible in a honda/acura......

I get what you were trying to do with this thread, so no need to quote up my entire post and rebuttle it, It's just my opinion so spare your tired little fingers.

Hybrid96EK

Several of your points are completely mislead. Its amazing how many people here are all over the bandwagon and saying "yeah yeah, this is completely the truth"..

Lets begin with the oil squirter arguement. This arguement I thought was put to rest years ago. You CLEARLY demonstrated your lack of knowledge when you mentioned the following quote:

"This amplifies the issues with chewing up piston rings, because essentially, near red line, your motor will be struggling to keep itself fully lubricated because of this lack of oil squirters""

Remember that a lot of what Honda puts into thier production engines comes from years upon years of racing knowledge. The oil squirters are one of these items. They are intended to cool the PISTON SKIRTS, not provide additional lubrication to the rings. Road racing means extended high rpm runs. This means increase in heat. This translates to expansion. The additional oil provided by the squirters helps to counter this effect. Its mainly beneficial like I said, in road racing. Someone who is driving on the street and doing some occasional "drag racing" like most people tend to do isn't going to benefit much from this system. If you are REALLY concerned about it, take a look at a stock Ls rod. You will notice that there is a hole drilled on the exhaust (thrust side) of the rod. What do you think that hole is there for? Did you ever notice the hole thats in the OEM uppear bearing half also? Yeah, that squirts oil on the thrust side of the piston. While not exactly the same thing, its there for cooling as well.

Your most recent statement seems to promote how great the crank girdle is and how it makes an engine superior.

"...as well as the 'cradle/girdle' design in a Vtec motor is much stronger.."

The crank girdle you may or may not have noticed is NOT standard on all Vtec bottom ends. You will see it on the GSR, Type R, and the D16Z6 and D16Y8. You will notice its NOT on the B16a or the B17a. I suppose your going to try to lead these people to believe that without it they won't have a 100k mile reliable setup next, right? Ever wonder WHY its not on the B16/B17 engines? Whats the crank girlde REALLY for then? The answer is actually somewhat simple. Something most people would be able to figure out if they did a little bit of reading and paid attention to the details. You will notice that the engines that have crank girdles are the ones with "less then optimal" rod to stroke ratios. Whats this mean? The engines with the "poor" rod to stroke ratios tend to have more flex in the main caps at high rpm. Since the Vtec engines obviously need rpm to create power, Honda put a crank girdle on the engine to help with the flex. Does that mean that without it the engine is going to die or last for 10 miles? No.. But agian, you need to keep in mind these engines are desgined for CONSTANT high rpm use.

The comment about reliability was really misleading as well. There was a statement about how an LS/Vtec could never last 100k miles or even 50k miles. This is simply NOT the truth. In fact, its anything but the truth. I know of one LS/Vtec that I happen to have built myself that is beyond the 50k mile mark. In fact, it sees 9 grand on a somewhat regular basis, has cams, pistons, valvetrain, blah blah and guess what? Its still running to this day and making excellent power. And no, it doesn't have excessive oil consumption or whatever other crap you will try to target it with. The fact of the matter is this statement is just plain ignorant. Its upsetting that people come here and post some general assumptions and get flocks upon flocks of sheep who just roll over and agree. Wake up people. LS/Vtec's have been around for some time now. They make good power and are realatively cheap to assemble. If you know the shortfalls of the B18B or B20 blocks, its easy to correct them and make an engine that is JUST AS RELIABLE as the factory DOHC Vtec engines. I realize you aren't trying to say you CAN'T build a good LS/Vtec, but some of your "key points" here are just plain false.

Dasfinc

That whole point is moot, I'm sorry it was not for the rings, but for the skirts, it is still a design that was inplace in Vtec engines for cooling that is not in the LS blocks.

The LS motor is not designed for CONSTANT high RPM use, the Girdle still help several of the other listed motors take abuse, at high RPM as you just said, which again, the LS bottom end is not designed for.

Your points are completely moot so far, all you are doing is going into more detail trying to 'correct' my points, You haven't proven anything 'wrong' about my write up, that's why i asked for input, not bashing.

Ok, so a SINGLE LS/Vtec YOU personally built, probably the correct way, and probably more than 5 years ago is still intact? Power to you, but you haven't shown how any of my key points are just plain 'false' you have corrected 2 of them to a small degree, but the basis is stil there, and then you are telling me you are aware of a SINGLE motor that you PERSONALLY built that is still alive and kicking, opposed to how many thousands that never see the 10K mark before popping?

I appreciate the input you have provided for the technical audience that wants to know 'why the oil squirters are specifically important' and what the girdle directly impacts, so thank you for that .

Hybrid96EK

I think you missed my key point. The LS engines do not have the oil squirters, yes, but they do have holes drilled in the rods that allow oil to be shot at the thrust side of the piston. The DOHC Vtec engines do not have this, but they have oil squirters. Its not exactly the same thing, but it serves the same general purpose. Doesn't make the LS a "weaker" block.

Depends on what your definition of 'high rpm' is? Considering the Y8 and Z6 both have girdles and those redline at the same point as the LS, whats the difference? I think you will find more of the 'problem' with the LS sustaining 8k rpms lies in the valve springs (singles, not duals) and the valve train. As you probably know the cam followers just sit in a little pocket. They rely heavily on spring pressure to maintain a seat in the pocket. Once you float the valve I am sure you can confidently say the spring pressure goes to hell and you run the risk of the followers failing. Wouldn't have this problem with a Vtec head on there though.

My point is far from moot. You are trying to make a statement in one direction, I am saying you are overlooking some very key details. If you ignore the facts, its easy to argue your opinion as gospel.

I'm sure there are MANY setups out there that people incorrectly built. You could name a million single cam turbos that people put together cheap and quick that blow up in the first week. Does that mean we should write up a thread about single cam turbos aren't a good choice? Should we point out how the rods are too thin? Should we complain about the open deck flexing? Should we point out that the heads lift at a certain point? Should we complain about the oil pump issues the Y series D's have? The list goes on and on. You can say ANY setup is bad for any given amount of reasons. Its all a matter of your opinion. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you shoudl make a thread about how much you think it sucks.


I've never personally been a fan of the LS/Vtec or B20/Vtec engines. I built one for a 'customer' who wanted it done. I did my research and learned how to do it correctly, or at least as correct as I knew. Anything slapped together with carelessness is likely to experience a short life. That still doesn't mean that it can't be done correctly, or shouldn't be attempted at all.

civic_r87111

I just want to say that any time u start modding an engine and putting on power adders that u just shot the reliability intentions of the engine period. Now I'm not saying how long it will or won't last but it won't last like a stock engine. I know this thread is meant for the LS/Vtec but the real issue is longevity in an engine and the main issues with it is purpose, driving habits, and the $ put into the build. I built my first LS/Vtec in 02 and have since learned from my mistakes and constantly been improving on it with that said the idea of the LS/Vtec being economical is wrong. In my opinion if your purpose is racing and having fun with it and ur going to spend money on building an engine regardless than the LS/Vtec does make good power and is great fun.

ferio252

Wow! Thanks for a great post! Respect the engineering!!!!

xSteve_Ox

Awsome thread. Helped me out alot.

delsolintegra

My 2 cents.
My LS/VTEC build was done by a professional Mercedes/BMW shop.
The mechanics were old school Polish, Mercedes trained in Europe.

They worked with standard main bearings - ignored the color code system.
We used new forged aluminum pistons but kept the standard LS rods.
Bearings and rings were their specialty.

We used a racing oil pump! They believed in this.

They said the oil squirters were for cooling, not to worry with the new pistons.

They had the Type R head checked out by a professional racing shop.

We used a non-VTEC head gasket which I believe does not block the coolant drain holes but slows down the oil drainage to the pan.

The head gets plenty of oil from the racing oil pump.

I bought the car with a blown head gasket on a B16. (94 Del Sol)
I gambled that the head was still good and salvageable.

I have run the car with the stock P30 ran well, tried a chipped P28 with a rev limit set at 8K and a VTEC activation at 5K seems to run a little better and will soon go with a AEM EMS installation and dyno tune next.

I have a LSD tranny and glad for it.

I'm breaking it in for 2 to 3 months before I go with synthetic oil and get the dyno tune.

We did a lot of research during the build and I trust the mechanics old school skills.

Time will tell.

sde780

This. You're only looking at it from one side, and some of your points are not correct as the guy up there pointed out.

And lowly SOHC's? You need to do some research before making a blanket statement

slide inside

sounds real good. any idea what racing oil pump and pistons were actually used? Idk, I think I might follow suit with my lsvtec (which i did not build).

Also how exactly are you supposed to break it in? normal oil driving hard or normal oil babying then switch to synthetic oil and drive normally? help me out

delsolintegra

The pistons were YCP forged aluminum.
The oil pump was a B16 B18 Type R GSR turbo P72 oil pump Stage 1 from Apocalypse.lic on e-bay - Moreno Valley, Ca.
Also:
Fidanza lightweight flywheel and clutch
ARP bolts
Low temp thermostat - in Florida and have A/C
New large aluminum radiator
ACL Race Rod bearings
Oil line conversion kit VTEV B18B Acura Integra Civic from Purchasefor less now -seller

The break in is with regular 5w- 30 oil.
I got a magnetized oil drain plug.
Accelerate medium hard lift off the gas totally and let the engine brake the car.
You want to slightly flex the piston rings so they seat themselves.
I've revved it freely to 8k a little early but the mechanic said take it easy.
It was hard to resist.
The mechanic believes in the stock rods. Other people worry about them.
I don't know if I'll ever boost it. If I do and keep it to 6-8 lbs it may be fine.

Maybe the workmanship in the bottom end is better than stock ?
I don't know?

This is a skilled shop working on Dinan BMW's and AMG Mercedes and a Mini Cooper I've seen go from 0-100 in half a city block.

slide inside

thanks so much^

Bwill9886

Interesting read overall, including comments.

Will definitely refer anyone I know to this thread looking at one of these setups.

civic_r87111

I use to break in engines all carfully because some guy told me blah, blah but now I rev it to 2500rpm for 20 minutes and after that it's all good and ***** to the walls.. Haven't had any problems with those engines since.

mach0

I wonder how reliable this is

boosting sol

im going to build a ls/vtec with a b20b botom end and a gsr head. i heard it would bolt up to it but im still looking it to it to make sure everything i want to do to it will work and bolt up. after i get my motor built i bet i will be able to drive it anywhere, but it is going to be fully built and have a good tune be4 i start to drive it. i do know a ls/v you have to get a good tune or you will blow the motor.

TheCivicMafia

Too bad my Single Cam will wax your spray and ive only spent 2,000 at 520 ponies

civic_r87111

Well think about what is getting broken in.. The piston rings and the bearings r getting seated. Rule of thumb is that it only takes 20mins to get them 80% + seated. If a part is going to fail it's not because u didn't break it in properly by baby it around for 1k+ miles.

itsnotfast

Amazing write up! I have been collecting parts for a LSV build for a while now and plan to go through with it, knowing the cons. I have read plenty and known people who have attempted this build and failed at it. So with some more research and proper assembley and a good tune, I hope to have built a reliable and fun dialy driven car. We shall see.