l31415

I recently took my 2010 Civic in to a local shop (not a Honda dealer) for a transmission fluid replacement. When I brought the car in, the odometer read just over 63,000 miles. After about 1.5 hours in the shop, I got the car back, and I noticed that my radio was locked. The shop was able to retrieve my radio unlock code, and I unlocked my radio without issue. I thought it was strange that my radio was locked, so I asked the shop owner if they had to disconnect the battery to perform the transmission service, and he claimed that it's done for convenience as the cables can obstruct the fill tube. I didn't think much of it at the time, but it now sounds strange.

I did not drive the car for a couple days until I embarked on a road trip. At the beginning of the trip, I cleared my trip odometer, at which time I noticed that my odometer read over 165,000! Immediately, I noticed that the odometer was set to kilometers, so I switched it back to miles, however, it still read over 102,000 miles!!!

I called the owner of the shop, and he sounded stunned, said he'd never heard of this happening before, and said he'd call around to see if anyone else had heard of it. After a few more phone calls, he claimed to be at a loss.

I called the service department at the Honda dealership where I purchased the car (new) back in 2010, but they also claimed to have never heard of this occurring.

I then called Honda of America to see if there were any reported issues/recalls of this type - they claimed they had no information.

I feel like I have run out of options here, and I am now left with the suspicion that my cluster was illegally swapped while the car was in for service.

Last night, a friend of mine hooked up his Bluetooth diagnostics scanner to my car to see if we could pull the VIN number in the computer, but the VIN was "not available."

I called the local police, but they said I would need proof that the cluster was swapped before I could even file a report.

I am at a complete loss here. My car just depreciated in value by ~40,000 miles in the blink of an eye. Has anyone seen/heard of this happening before? What is the likelihood that my cluster was swapped? What should I do next? I really would like to get my odometer reading corrected ASAP. Any information whatsoever would be greatly appreciated.

vtecnique69

thats strange. never, ever heard of that before.

I thought the ECU stores mileage, not the cluster, but I could be wrong.

even weirder is that the scanner can't pull the vin.

Maybe take it to Autozone and borrow one of their scanners that hook directly into the OBD port instead of using a BT scanner. I would start there.

Also, maybe contact the dealer to get a build sheet and see if the ECU or cluster serial number is listed, and check from there. Probably won't be, but worth a shot. I have no idea how easy it would be to find that stuff out.

l31415

Thanks for the reply. I'm not sure where the mileage is stored. The owner of the shop claimed that the mileage is stored in both the ECU and the cluster, and if the two values don't match, the odometer will read "ERROR." I can't confirm whether this is true for Hondas, or if he was just trying to make me think it was impossible for them to have done anything illegal. Even if it is true, I guess they would simply have to swap both the cluster and the ECU to get around it, so it's not much reassurance.

I'll be out of town for a few days, but I'll see if I can borrow a wired scanner from AutoZone when I return. However, my friend's BT OBD scanner seemed to work very well; only a few pieces of information were "not available," one (of course) being the VIN, so I'm not holding out much hope that the results of the wired scanner will be any different. Do you know if the VIN should be available via the OBD port on a 2010 Civic, or is it normal for it to be unavailable?

I asked the service manager at the Honda dealer if there was any way they would be able to tell if my cluster or ECU had been swapped out or tampered with, and he made it sound like it was pretty much impossible because with the right equipment, every piece of information is programmable. However, he didn't even mention there being a hard serial number on either the ECU or the cluster. Thanks for the idea of the build sheet - it would make sense if they recorded the serial numbers of all sensitive components when the car is built. I'll have to see if they can provide me with this information. Do you know if clusters also have a hard serial number on them somewhere?

vtecnique69

It could be the brand of the scanner as well. Some of the cheap ones are, well... cheap.

The one I bought (and somehow lost) from autozone like a decade and a half ago did not pull vins, only codes. Its the orange one with 2-3 buttons and thats all its pretty much good for. Since then they've added a few types of scanners so I am not positive which ones they loan out. When you ask which ones they have, remember the orange one does not usually pull a vin. I also have a bt scanner which works really well and pulls the vin of every vehicle i've attached it to. If you have an extra $20-30 it might be a sound investment as you can store any car you have on it. I don't know which one your friend has but if you want i can get the info on it if you're interested.

If they mated a new ecu and cluster, they would also have to register the vin AND your keys. I take it you gave them 1 key. Try the valet or 2nd key to see if they work. The vin should always pop up regardless of what happened. I had my ecu swapped at one point and the vin still shows up on my scanner.

Come to think of it... the key thing might be your best bet. I don't think you can swap old keys to a different computer, and it would be impossible andtoo time consuming to rekey the car to that one key. I would ask honda the likelihood of using your key to a different computer. I know when mine was swapped, I needed an all new key made because they couldn't use my old one.

The cluster I would be very surprised if there was a recorded serial number. The ecu I would be surprised if there wasn't because for any warranty issues major serial numbers usually get recorded and changed in their systems I would think (it does at my dealer, but I work for Rush/International) - Things like blocks, ecus, etc. would have serial numbers. If you pull the ecu cover off I think it stares you right in the face. If you get that number and Honda can get you what the car came with, you have a good foundation to start building your case. If need be I would think Honda of America can get you that info with your vin and probably some added proof of ownership.

Tjw149

Looks like you got ripped off man. Sorry to hear that.

l31415

Thanks again for your continued help, vtecnique69. I just returned home and tried a few things today.

Correct, I only gave the shop one key. So I tried both my second key as well as my valet key today and they both worked fine.

I then visited my local Pep Boys, but the only scanner they had available for free customer scans was the simple orange unit that only pulled diagnostics codes, not the VIN.

I then visited a local Honda dealership, and after telling them my story, they were happy to hook up their scanner for free, and they claimed they were able to pull the VIN, and that the VIN matched (I didn't actually get to see it for myself, but I have no reason to doubt them). However, they told also told me the exact same thing the other Honda dealership service manager I spoke with on the phone said, that all information in the ECU is programmable with the right equipment, so there's still a possibility it could have been swapped, but they also thought it would have been difficult to do in 1.5 hours.

Next, I'm going to call Honda of America and try to request a build sheet. Pretty much the last thing I can hope for is that I can get the information and compare serial numbers.

With this new information, would you still be suspicious that the ECU and/or cluster were swapped? The fact that my battery was disconnected in order to perform a trans fluid replacement is the thing I can't let go of, and both Honda service centers I've spoke with also said it was strange. It also doesn't help that every single person I've spoken with has said they've never heard of this happening, so it seems the chances of a bug/glitch are very low.

SmittenPixels

Damn this sounds like nightmare! I hope you get all this sorted out!

l31415

Thanks for the sympathy. I'm interested in what it is from my story that makes you lean towards me getting ripped off? I'm looking for as much input and information as possible. Also, please look at the most recent information I've posted and see if it makes you feel more or less strongly.

The fact that my battery was disconnected in order to perform a trans fluid replacement has raised suspicions of the professionals I've spoken with, however they all have also seemed to think the swap/reprogramming would be very difficult to complete in 1.5 hours. It's starting to sound like it was possible but not probable, however I have found no reports of this occurring due to a bug/glitch, so I feel I have to rule out illegal activity before I can even attempt to get Honda to investigate a problem (I don't even know how I would initiate that - if anyone does know, please let me know).

l31415

Thanks. I'm hoping so, too!

l31415

I just got off the phone with Honda of America, and the representative I spoke with told me that she could not provide me with a complete build sheet, but she could tell me serial numbers of individual components that I needed.

Unfortunately, she did not see anything listed under "ECU." I asked her to also check for "ECM," and anything with the words "computer," "control unit" or "control module" and she said there were none listed. She also found nothing under "cluster" or "instrument panel." This is incredibly frustrating.

Can anyone confirm whether these serial numbers (ECU, cluster) are listed on the build sheet, and if so, what are the names of the components as they are listed on the sheet? Also, are there any other serial numbers I should request that may indicate something was swapped/tampered with?

vtecnique69

I personally would still be concerned, but less with the fact that all the keys worked and honda stating it would be difficult to do in that short of a time frame. Still concerned though.

There should be literally no reason to disconnect the battery. I have never had to do it on any car i owned when changing the trans fluid. That is why they make funnels and hoses.

If it is a glitch, its a really effed up glitch.

Since your caralready has 40k extra miles, maybe try disconnecting the battery and reconnecting it to see if it jumps back lol. Worth a shot at this point.

Was honda able to read a different mileage?

here are a couple of good reads:

Odometer Mileage Tampering, 4 signs to look for

How to detect *Odometer Fraud* - Team-BHP

jak..

AFAIK this is not true, mileage follows the cluster and swapping throws no errors, at least on the cluster itself. Honda's diagnostic tools might be able to see more, but IDK.





OP, I don't know what happened in your case, but a cluster swap only takes a few minutes.

vtecnique69

partially true i believe. you have to sync the cluster witht he ecu i think.

l31415

I can't seem to get a definitive answer on this, not from two Honda service centers nor from Honda of America. It doesn't help that I've heard from different people:

1. Mileage is only stored in the cluster
2. Mileage is only stored in the ECU
3. Mileage is stored on both and they need to be synced up

Knowing exactly what is required to swap odometer readings (simple swap of clusters vs. swap of both cluster and ECU followed by reprogramming of VIN, etc.) would help me gauge if it was even physically possible for the shop to rip me off in under an hour and a half.

Also, if the process does involve swapping and reprogramming the ECU, that would mean the shop had some pretty specialized equipment in order to reprogram the ECU, which makes me wonder why they would even need to swap anything with my car -- why not simply reprogram a lower amount of miles in the other car? I would assume that's also possible to do with the same equipment that is able to reprogram a VIN.

vtecnique69

i was reading a few articles about rolling back electronic odometers and it seems that there is software that will allow you to do it, but im sure it is very tech-y and if the hardware is readily available, it would be preferred to swap over a cluster /ecu just because thats what they may know already.

You may want to gather evidence of current mileage vs recorded mileage. Grab as many service records as you can to prove where you may stand (for example, maybe you had your oil changed 2 months ago at some shop, and they recorded your mileage as xx,xxx, and a month ago you had an alignment at xx,yyy, etc.). Depending on how this plays out it may help your case showing that you couldn't have driven 40k miles in a months time.

l31415

Sure, if it only requires swapping the cluster, I agree. What I was getting at is if this required swapping and reprogramming the ECU (because my VIN still matches), I would think they wouldn't bother swapping anything; they could simply reprogram the ECU of the cars they want to roll back miles on. This is why I wish someone could tell me with certainty everything that is involved in swapping the odometer readings of 2010 Civics; I'd at least have a better idea of whether it could have been tampered with.

I have record of an oil change from March (from the same shop, nonetheless) that shows my mileage around 62,000, and I have record of an emissions test from mid-May (only a couple weeks before this all took place) in which the attendant rounded my mileage down to an even 60,000. However, according to the police, these records alone weren't considered "proof" of anything. I feel completely helpless.

rd2smoker

Is it still a good car? And you know the real miles? And it's not broke?

Just drive the car and live with it. You will kill your self grabbing straws over and over, about something that doesn't change the fact that nothing is wrong with your car, other than a number not matching what it "should be".

Unless this is a big ploy to just roll the clock back to make the car worth more for a resale...tisk tisk...haha.

vtecnique69

the point is there is an added 40k miles on the car than there should be. if he wanted to sell tomorrow, it would take a hit due to some computer error.

Now, if he plans on keeping this car until the wheels fall off, then it shouldn't matter.

then there is the fact that someone could have tampered with it. Its really an odd situation and i feel there are not going to be any real answers, which really sucks.

I feel for you, and i have no idea what i would do in your position OP.

did you try disconnecting and reconnecting the battery?

l31415

Thanks for understanding my predicament, vtecnique69. Whether it was tampered with or a glitch, at this point, I couldn't care less. I would just like my mileage corrected. I wasn't planning on selling/trading in the car any time soon, but as this has dragged on with practically no progress, I've begun to think that I'll just have to drive it till the wheels fall off, as it will be practically impossible to convince a buyer the car actually has 40k less miles with a few pieces of paper.

Yes. I just brought the car back to the shop where this all originally transpired and had them disconnect the battery (just in case the mileage were to jump again, I wanted witnesses). Reconnected the battery after about 10 minutes but nothing changed.

The shop owner again claimed there was nothing more he could do, so he printed out a service history for me and recommended I pursue this further with Honda of America. However, the couple times I've called them, they didn't seem all that interested in investigating it. The first person I spoke with didn't do anything, and the second simply "logged the issue" in their system. Does anyone know of a specific department/phone number at Honda of America where I might be able to escalate this higher?

rd2smoker

Unfortunately you will get the ol-run-a-round on this one, thousands of guys over the years have tried to roll the odometer back just so they can make an extra buck or two, and thats how someone who doesn't know you will see this.

(Ring-ring-ring) "hello?" ...."yeah HONDA?....how do I roll the OD back in my car? It got ...messed up."

And thats how they see it. It sucks but hey, you still have your car.

l31415

This is what I've been afraid of, and it seems to be how I've been treated thus far.

However, I have documented evidence that my mileage was recorded as a (slightly rounded-down) 60,000 miles at my last emissions test on 5/11/16 and at over 102,000 miles on 5/23/16, only 12 days later. It's practically impossible to put that many miles on the car in 12 days. You would have to drive the car at an average of 70 mph 24 hours a day for all 12 of those days in order to do this! I would think this in and of itself should warrant some kind of investigation into the issue from Honda, wouldn't you?

vtecnique69

in a perfect world, yes. But you are only one of the hundreds of thousands of civic owners that this has happened to so it is going to be an extremely low priority on Honda's part. Hell, on anyone's part.

Unfortunately at this point it is a losing battle and i always hate telling people to move on, but with everything that you have there just may not be enough to convict anybody (its not like the computers keep detailed logs that anyone can refer back to in events like this).

Keep your detailed records, and when questions arise just be honest. I know its a real **** situation but no one seems to care as much as you or I so its most likely not going to go anywhere, and if it gets legal, the cost of lawyers and court fees may swell past the actual value of the car and there is no real concrete evidence that anything corrupt happened. If I were a judge and heard this case, my first impression would be "paperwork and records can be forged" so there has to be something else to catch the criminals in the act.

fcm

Question, did the shop that did the tranny fluid not record the mileage?

Also, when you went back and had them disconnect the batt. did it not "lock up" the radio again?

I have a hard time believing a shop, [any shop] would go through all that trouble for 40,000 miles, 140,000 maybe.

I am leaning towards a glitch and maybe a letter/fax to Honda America along with any watchdog organisation 94 about the problem may get better results from Honda, squeaky wheel gets the grease, and the last thing any company wants is bad publicity. 94

l31415

They did. However, both the "In" and "Out" mileages were recorded as the new, higher amount (and both were also recorded in kilometers, as my cluster was also switched to kilometers after the service). I found this along with the fact that my battery had been disconnected for the trans service suspicious, as if the shop swapped out my cluster with one that was set to kilometers (assuming they will hold that setting without power), and the shop recorded both the "In" and "Out" mileages hastily after performing the swap, without checking whether it was in miles or km.

I guess there is a very slim possibility that if this was a glitch, it occurred in the 12 days before I brought it in for the trans service and I didn't notice it. If it was a glitch, it would've had to occur in those 12 days since my proper mileage was recorded at the emissions test I mentioned a few posts up. Not to mention, the glitch would have had to bump my mileage up by ~40,000 and switch the cluster to kilometers without my noticing. I didn't drive very much in that 12 day period, but I feel that would be something I would notice fairly quickly.

Yes. The radio was once again locked.

I also thought it would be a lot of trouble for 40,000 miles, but the things that I described above just don't add up, and I have yet to vindicate the shop, so I remain suspicious.

Thanks for the idea of copying in a watchdog organisation - this might be what it would take to get some action from Honda of America. Are there any organisations you (or anyone else here) would recommend?

ccartermosley

Your NOT alone. I thought I was the only one like seriously this is why computers suck and have glitches. I have every reason to believe it’s a glitch cause now it’s happened twice in a year. First time was a 20,000 mile jump and now a 200,000 mile jump and I’m just like wow wtf am I supposed to do now. The cars value is nothing! My car now says 422,000 some miles when real mileage is right at 200,000 now. Also that’s strange since I bought it when mileage was at 148,000 when bought and since then the radio has been locked.