ASSASSIN

I wouldnt say a 19 year old would break things another person of any age wouldnt.

Some poeple use common sense and finesse, and others dont.

For those that use brute force to do everything I can understand how some things will break, but you would be very hard pressed to break a tooth off of a flywheel.

Thats what the starter kicks over to start the engine, and when the motor gives a residual kick in the opposite direction due to compression (sometimes) the flywheel (and starter) absorb the torque which is probably close to the amount you would use to break the crank bolt loose.

I actually use a lug wrech with one end being like a huge heavy-duty flathead screwdriver.
It rests about 1.5" above the teeth of the flywheel on the transmission case...Im sorry you will not break a tooth off by loosing the crank bolt. That crank bolt will break or strip before a tooth breaks off.
And the housing is fine as long as the screwdriver, or whatever you use is butted up firm against the housing.

Now I can see a small screwdriver breaking, or if like the other guy said "Yes, I have heard about people damaging there clutch housing"...Im not sure what a clutch housing is but if the guy stuck a scerwdriver inbetween the pressure plate and flywheel, then yes I can see that breaking off, but not a flywheel tooth which is what Im saying to hold.

I would have to see that to beleive it.

There are just too many poeple doing it, and too many motors not designed with a way to lock the crank with a tool.

Ive been doing this for a while....you can use a proper sized screwdriver and be fine...no worries at all.

Its good your nephew is into doing something constructive live mechanical work. Through experience he should get more comfortable with what works and what doesn't.
Hopefully a hobby like this will help keep him too busy to get into trouble.

I went to school and got an electronic engineering degree because I loved cars and wanted to know how the electrical system worked...well I found out I really like electronics, and now make good money at it.
That has helped me get into other things like CAD and a basis for understanding audiophile stero installation and acoustic design.
I like to know as much as I can....I learn a bit about something then go try it. Through my mistakes I learn something each time.

I also worked paint and body for around 10 years, and am really glad I learned that too. I have perfectionist qualities and have painted some cars that turned out really hot..and there is no better feeling that when you do something like that, stand back and see how great it turned out and say "I did that"

Through experience you learn...and mistakes are bound to happen. Mistakes are part of the learning curve, and help speed learning up...so they can be a good thing. You'll never know what will happen until you try.



Since I dont have anything more to add to this post ill end by saying if anyone disagrees with me lets just agree to disagree.

Have a good day guys.

TouringAccord

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ASSASSIN &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
For those that use brute force to do everything I can understand how some things will break, but you would be very hard pressed to break a tooth off of a flywheel.

Thats what the starter kicks over to start the engine, and when the motor gives a residual kick in the opposite direction due to compression (sometimes) the flywheel (and starter) absorb the torque which is probably close to the amount you would use to break the crank bolt loose.

Im sorry you will not break a tooth off by loosing the crank bolt. That crank bolt will break or strip before a tooth breaks off.
And the housing is fine as long as the screwdriver, or whatever you use is butted up firm against the housing.

Now I can see a small screwdriver breaking, or if like the other guy said "Yes, I have heard about people damaging there clutch housing"...Im not sure what a clutch housing is but if the guy stuck a scerwdriver inbetween the pressure plate and flywheel, then yes I can see that breaking off, but not a flywheel tooth which is what Im saying to hold.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

ok, I gotta clear this up.

Where did you read anyone say anything about breaking a tooth off the flywheel? I didn't, nor do I remember anyone else saying that.

By your comment of not knowing what I meant by a clutch housing then I would have to say you didn't even look at the link I posted. The reason I say that is because if you had you would have seen what I meant by a clutch housing. You may call it something different but the pictures would have cleared that up.

No one said to put the screwdriver between the pressure plate and the flywheel either.

please elaborate as to what housing your refering to. When you just say "housing", that is pretty vague. Which housing? This will better help people, like myself, to understand what your talking about.


Modified by TouringAccord at 7:48 AM 8/30/2004

TouringAccord

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ASSASSIN &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Since I dont have anything more to add to this post ill end by saying if anyone disagrees with me lets just agree to disagree.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree with you here. Thats the nice thing about Honda-Tech. There are so many people on here that there are many different views on how to do things. Some people get pissed off and can't take constructive criticism. Those who can though, make for a good discusion.

JimBlake

I've had good luck with the impact wrench. First time I did my timing belt I had to go to a local garage & they broke it loose with some big-torque air impact. It only took one quick hit with that thing. Then we put it back on with a ratchet handle & drove 1/2 mile back home.

Someone asked about all those other engines... Some other engines have a convenient place to bolt on a flywheel holder. It's a little plate with several gear teeth that engage the flywheel, you bolt it to the starter mounting bolts or something like that. Some other engines (vw?) have 3 or 4 smaller bolts arranged around the crank pulley.

omeara7

Thanks to everybody for your suggestions and help. I'm going to be working at the local Pep Boys, so hopefully I can get someone in the garage to loosen it up for me. I have broken many things (especially car-related parts) but that's all part of the learning experience...i guess. I'm learning, just learning the hard way. I'd much rather just use air to break the bolt loose but if I can't, I'll invest in the crank-bolt removal tool before I try the screwdriver technique or any other technique (only because I have never done a T-Belt before and knowing my luck I'd probably break something).
Thanks again

TouringAccord

Sounds like a good plan, good luck.

digme

I am totally a new-bie... been following thread for almost a two months with great interest...
I live in Maryland... any body who would be willing to lend me a hand in doing this job? i have a lot of hesitation to do it, but i have bought the Helms Manual... i have some questions guys.

1) I am so scared about the adjusting of the tensions on the P/S belt and Alternator belt, Timing Belt, and Balancer shaft.... So scared that i am thinking about taking it to the Dealer(but i hate the dealers).. How can one know the belts are not too tight nor too loose? common sense would tell me to judge their tension before removing them and be able to replicate that tension once the belts are back on

2) i will most proabably end up taking it to the shop to get it loosened, i am hoping maybe $10 - $15 but the question i have is would they need to remove the alternator, Power Steering Pump, to be able to get to the Pulley Bolt?

3) What the hell- I understand that most of the stuff about specifically what the Helm book states.... MY BIGGEST WORRY IS will I have enough light, and room to manuver my hands to get enough leverage to be able to take stuff and out and put it in, once the bolt is off....

4)Specific TDC instructions arenot present in the Helms Book... Am i correct in saying the following?

i) Go find A mark on the CAP
Mark a point with a whiteout directly under A on the Distributor body

ii) take the cap off...

iii) turn the Crankshaft (THIS IS WHERE I AM SHAKING MY HEAD) by using a rachet and bolt (i guess to the pulley holder bolt up on top that comes next to Alternator Belt) to turn Crankshaft to mark it exactly on the White marker... WHAT GIVES HERE? is that turning supposed to be done down below, with the splash guard moved, plastic guard removed, and engine lowered? what gives here? I kinda realize this is elementary, but if i don't ask here, i will make a fool of myself by destroying my beloved Accord.


ON A SIDE NOTE: THIS IS THE BEST COVERAGE IN TERMS OF TIMING-BELTS That I HAVE SEEN IN THE WHOLE FREAKIN INTERNET FOR THE JOB! I wish the MODS WOULD PUT IT AS A STICKY... Mods...any better ideas?

huyvu90

What size extensions are you guys using? I don't have a lift so I guess I would need a long extension therefore flexes and torque loss.

JimBlake

Since you're getting the Helm book, I think there's a picture of how you press your thumb against the long span of each belt & how far it's supposed to move. If it's too tight, the alternator bearings wear out quicker. Too loose & sometimes it squeals. So I prefer making it too loose - if it squeals I tighten it up a bit.

The alternator or ps pump or ac compressor don't have to come off at all. Only thier drive belts, & even that isn't necessary to loosen the crank pulley bolt.

Seeing what you're doing is one of the tough things early on, that's why your first timing belt change takes a lot longer than your second... It's not too bad, but it depends on what year/engine you have. A trouble lamp is a really good thing to have.

Yes they are! Look towards the end of the 'change timing belt' section. I don't remember any stuff with the distributor, but that's for my 4-cyl cars. Not all Hondas are exactly the same. (Got a V-6??)

Sounds like you're talking about using the distributor rotor to get somewhere close to TDC. Find the #1 plug wire, mark (or remember) it's position. Take off the cap & turn the engine so the rotor points to that position. Here's another way, since you have to take off all this stuff anyway...

1) Take off external drive belts (alternator, ac...) & all 4 spark plugs (that makes the engine easier to turn). Sometimes it helps to remove some plastic splash shrouds around the wheel & under the front bumper.

2) Take off upper timing belt cover. Now you'll see the camshaft sprocket with the timing belt on it. Don't ever use that to turn the engine. Notice there's an arrow on the sprocket.

3) Grab the lowest pulley - that's the crankshaft pulley. Turn it only forward! That's counterclockwise for most Hondas, but always the top of the pulley moves towards the front of the car. If you can't turn it by hand, put a socket wrench on the bolt in the center of this pulley or use the pulley holder that Touring shows in the 2nd post way up top.

4) The crankshaft turns twice for every one turn of the camshaft. So when you're looking for the TDC markings on the camshaft & crankshaft, don't let that confuse you. Turn the engine several revolutions if you'd like, just so you understand the markings.

5) When the arrow is getting close to pointing up, then start watching the timing marks. Use the pictures in your Helm book. This is a pretty good forum, but you gotta be careful about descriptions of the wrong year, wrong engine, or sometimes just plain wrong...

TouringAccord

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JimBlake &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So I prefer making it too loose - if it squeals I tighten it up a bit.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree. You don't want them too tight. It's better to make them a little loose and get tighter from there, that way you don't over tighten.

To set proper tension on the timing belt and balancer shaft belt is easy. All you need to do is loosen the adjusting nut and rotate the crank pulley a couple times to make sure the belt is seated. Then torque the adjusting nut down. Now your timing belt is at the proper tension. I like to buy new springs for this. They are only $3 from the dealer and this insures proper tension is being applied.

TDC is explained in the Helms. I don't have my book with me right now so I can't give you the page number but it's there. And JimBlake gave you some good tips as well.

Follow that manual and make sure you allow yourself plenty of time to get the job done so you don't need to rush.

TouringAccord

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by huyvu90 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What size extensions are you guys using? I don't have a lift so I guess I would need a long extension therefore flexes and torque loss.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't really understand your question. The front of the car does have to be off the ground. Just use a jack and a set of jack stands to get it up there.

digme

OH Guys thanks so much... i have the book.. my book is for 98 - 2002.
I have a 99 Accord, DX cut... 4DR...

I am glad that both of you were able to explain about the tension...
- i still can't find explicit instructions for TDC... i am on Page 6-23..(and remember my book is for 98-2002 since 98-99 book is out of print)

at one point all it states is (3) "turn the crankshaft pulley so its TDC mark (A) lines up with the pointer (B)... now my question is, what the hell are you going to use to turn the crankshaft pulley... WHAT IS CONFUSING is that this instruction is given prior to removing the splashguard, raising the vehicle, raising the vehicle, removing the A/C belt, the just plain right in the beginning...

IS HELMS expecting me to stick my fingers or hand in between the P/S belts to turn the pulley wheel by hand from the top? what gives guys?

On the rest of it, i am good in terms of understanding, and I am so glad for the warnings about not using CAM turning to lineup for TDC... anyway, i still need to get a lot of tools .... if any of you have some of these to let borrow in the MD area, i will drive and rent it out from you...

a) that stupid socket that Dealer trying to sell me for $80( P/N 07MAB-PY3010A)
b) the handle with it that they said is another $70 (P/N 07JAB=001020A)
C) breaker bar (i don't have one)
d) cheater bar

- one of the questions unanswered was:

if i take the car to a shop to get the bolt loosened, would i be able to tighten the bolt at home without using that special tool? thankyou....

JimBlake

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by digme &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">IS HELMS expecting me to stick my fingers or hand in between the P/S belts to turn the pulley wheel by hand from the top? what gives guys?</TD></TR></TABLE>Sure. But it's kinda strange how they do that. It's a lot easier to turn if you take out the spark plugs & remove the external belts first. Besides, if you take off the upper timing belt cover, you can see the camshaft sprocket. That way you'll know whether you're at #1 or #4 TDC.

I've got the '98-'99 book but 6-23 was the right page. Look on 6-26 for a picture of the camshaft pulley. There's "UP" stamped on it, & the marks that are supposed to line up horizontally. That's how the marks need to line up at the same time the crank is at it's marks. I'm not really sure what you don't understand.

The balancer shafts are on the next couple pages. I haven't done mine yet (only my Integra) so I don't know firsthand.

About my tools... It's probably cheaper for you to buy them vs. driving to Akron. Breaker bar is something you'll want to own. Cheater bar is just a $5 peice of pipe to make the breaker bar loooooooong. Summit Racing has a version of that crank holder that's cheaper.

TouringAccord

I haven't looked at Summits crank holding tool but don't go to the dealer, they are too expensive. Either buy it from the site I posted on the first page or from Summit if it's the same tool. From there you are going to need a 1/2" rachet or breaker bar to hold the special tool with and then a short cheater bar on the end of that. Then your going to want a 1/2" drive 19mm 6pt socket on the end or a 1/2" extension connected to a 1/2" drive rachet or beaker bar with a long cheater bar on the end of that. The cheater bars are just metal pipes from the hardware store that give you extra leverage.

The way I turn the crank is with the special tool. Without the spark plugs, PS belt, Alt. Belt you can probably turn it by hand.

And to answer your question about if you take it to a shop and have them loosen it will you be able to tighten it without the special tool, no. You need that tool the hold the pulley in place while you torque that bolt.

daich

After reading through this thread, I'm going to have to put in my two cents.
My first timing belt was on a Miata, 93. It's a rear wheel drive beast so it 's slightly different. Well, as usual, the crank pulley bolt was the biggest barrier I faced which wasted nearly a whole day of my time. Not having many tools(I was 19 at the time also), I tried every trick I could find in the book (or internet ) I tried the starter tap method (which, as noted previously will NOT work with our accords) with extremely scary results (the miata was so light, the starter turned the breaker bar, LIFTING the entire front end of the car up followed by an ear ringing slam of the breaker bar against the wall of the garage as it was slung out from underneath the car!) I also tried fashioning my own tool (not unlike the honda tool everyone is talking about) which sadly snapped almost immediately under intense torquage. Not willing to give in to defeat, I hunted desperately online for other solutions. HERE is where it gets CRAZY. Some freak online dumped oil down one cylinder and screwed down the spark plug, effectively hydrolocking his car, which stopped the crankshaft from turning and voila....off came the bolt. Shaking my head in pure skeptism, I read on in the thread. Another Freak Genius concluded that this method worked because oil is not compressable and neither is nylon rope! So he proceeded to jam as much nylon rope down the poor cylinder's hole and since it wasn't going to "flow" out, didn't even need to put in the spark plug. Voila! magic! No mess, just simply pull out the rope when you're done! (just make sure that your valves are closed in that cylinder! otherwise you'll bend them!)
So guess what I did? You bet! and it worked!
To this day I still mention this method to all the mechanics I meet and I always receive a raised eyebrow of disbelief.
I've never had to do it again but I still keep that as my last resort
I've done 5 other cars, three of which were accords and I just take it over to a mechanic and get them to break it loose for me. Saves me my vocal chords , sweat, tears and painful knuckles.
good luck!
daich

Modified by daich at 1:02 PM 11/30/2004


Modified by daich at 1:05 PM 11/30/2004

matt_in_sd

Hydrolocking your engine might just cause a bent rod. Cheaper to use the tool.