js999

So I am not familiar with car stuff much at all. 2000 CIVIC EX. Got a P1361 Top Dead Center Sensor. Talked to a few different Honda dealerships and am getting several answers. The part itself is only $60-$70 so not a big deal. However several places are telling me that its very labor intensive and that as a result I should have them replace my timing belt and water pump as well. This is a 2000 Civic with about 175,000 miles on it. The timing belt was done at about 120,000 or so I think, however I am pretty sure that the water pump was never changed. I will look back at my records but I am almost certain that it wasn't done. I have been told they should both be done at the same time but when the timing belt was changed the guy told me that my water pump was fine at that time. I have heard the the timing belt should last me 80,000 to 100,000 miles is this right? Also some people on here with many miles over 200,000 have said the have never replaced there water pump, is this typical.

I am getting estimated of 500-600 for the timing belt/water pump replacement plus another 100 for the TDC sensor part and labor.

Another Honda dealer has told me that the sensor will only require an hour of labor for about $100 plus the part of $60-$70, so a MAJOR difference in cost.
I am pretty sure this is the dealer I will be taking it too.

Can anyone here with knowledge about this replacement tell me if the other places are just trying to rip me off and get me to do more work than needed and therefore spend more $ or if the one place thats only going to charge me an hour of labor is just giving me a good deal and if indeed the replacement of the TDC sensor does require almost as much labor as a timing belt/water pump job. THANKS!


Also I am getting a P0420 code. I have read A LOT of posts on here about this and seem quite a bit of info. Heres some more detail on my situation. About a year ago my local mechanic while doing an oil change told me a code came on that I needed a new O2 sensor. I asked if I needed it right away and if I would damage the car if I didn't replace it, he said he had never replaced his when it went bad and that his Civic runs just fine, just runs rich. I am now learning that running the engine very rich may have damaged my CAT completely. However I am only getting a P0420 Bank 1 ineffiancy code and its not giving me any codes for the O2 sensor. I am confused at this. He said it gave the O2 sensor code and now its not? Anyone familiar with this?

Just want to make sure I don't need to replace the CAT if its only the sensor(s). I assume the only way to know is to have them test the sensors and examine the actual CAT itself. Just wanna have an idea of what Im looking at in cost and if I should have the dealer order the CAT for me in advance and if it likely will need to be replaced. Just don't get why the code for the O2 sensor would no longer come on. Also some people on here have posted that the O2 sensor(s) caused the P0420 code to come on. I did find a real good deal on the CAT for under $400 from a Honda dealer that sells a lot online, where as I got quotes from several dealers, $515, $830, and $910, all for the same damn part. Quite a variance between all of these that are obviously marking them up quite a bit.


THANKS in advance to anyone that can answer both of these issues about the labor on the Top Dead Center Sensor and also the CAT/O2 P0420 issue.

pw.hondatech

a 420 is gonna be a cat.sorry.the tdc sensor is still in the distributor on that model.the thing down on the front of the crank is the crankshaft speed fluctuation sensor it just monitors for misfire.yes the timing belt and water pump are recommended at 90-100k though.500-700 depending on the shop.unless of course you actually have a 2001 which is a diff body style and engine in that case the 1361 would be a camshaft sensor.

js999

I am really confused now. I have talked to several different local shops and a few dealerships and am getting different answers which makes me quite concerned about what dealer to take the car to. I assume since if its a Honda dealer they should know what they are talking about but that doesn't appear to be the case since I am getting different info at each dealer.

To be clear it is a 2000 Civic EX Manual as mentioned above. Several honda sites(genuine honda dealer part) sell the TDC Top Dead Center Sensor for about $40-$50. One dealer said they can replace it and the labor would be between 1 and 2 hours of time. Another dealer said I have to replace the entire distributor and that you can't just replace the TDC sensor. Why would they sell it separatly if you can't replace it by itself?

Also one dealer said this is a TDC Crank Sensor and that it is the same thing as the Top Dead Center Sensor, another said they are totally different.

One dealer said its not in the distributor its under the timing belt cover.

So which is it and what needs to be replaced? I am not made of $ and can't afford unnceccary repair costs. The car has about 165,000 miles on it and I want it to run to 500,000 like many Honda owners have done. I take good care of the car and replace things that are needed when they go. I have been very lucky and have had very few things go wrong over the years.
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Next issue is the CAT. It is coming up P420. I was told I needed a new 02 sensor a while back and that it wouldn't mess up my car if I didnt change it, just cause me to get less MPG. Well apparently the guy was VERY wrong and I have now learned that a bad 02 sensor may very well have caused the CAT to go bad! However, the code for the 02 sensor is not coming up now, what does this mean? Should I still replace it when I have the CAT replaced? Why wouldn't it come on anymore? I never saw the code personally I just know what the car place told me. They are about $200 for the factory OEM 02 sensor online so I don't want to replace it if I don't have to. However, if I am going to invest almost $600 plus the cost of labor in a new CAT I don't want a bad 02 sensor to mess this one up. Any suggestions?

Also I know there are 2 different 02 sensors. I have read that the one near the CAT only tells you if the CAT is working and that the other one determines the fuel ratio. I imagine this sensor if it went bad is what caused the CAT to go back by running the engine too rich from what I have read.

So based on all of this what should I do and exactly what needs to be replaced. Like I said I have gotten VERY different info from different HONDA dealers and this is a major concern.


I plan to buy the parts online and have a HONDA dealer install them. Can anyone who knows what I need to do also tell me the total amount of time each issue (CAT/02 & TDC Sensor/Possible Distributor Replacement) will take in terms of labor time. They charge about $100 an hour for labor.
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phootbag

I'm going to try reading the posts. If I get through it I'll see what I can come up with.

phootbag

You only stated that the vehicle has a DTC stored for the TDC sensor CIRCUIT. Circuit being the key word there because the presence of the DTC doesn't automatically mean there is a problem with the sensor itself only that the circuit feedback isn't what the ECM wanted to see. This means there can be a wiring problem, a sensor problem, a problem with the sprocket which generates the signal, the ECM or just a bad connection somewhere. It pays to diagnose because cheap is expensive.

The catalyst DTC will not be set directly by a faulty oxygen sensor. If the engine runs poorly in one way or another damage to the catalyst can result but at that point you need to replace the cat AND repair the engine. Though, catalytic converters will lose efficiency over time naturally as they become coated with junk.

I would only let someone capable of diagnosing the DTCs perform the repair. And I don't mean a guy who pulls a code and says a sensor is bad...

js999

Well the car has issues with the timing it seems and goes into a kinda limp mode and everything I have read says this is associated with the P1361 TDC intermittent interruption. I need answer on what I asked about about the location of the sensor and if the distributor needs to be replaced or if just the sensor can be replaced.

As far as the CAT, like I said I was told it a bad O2 sensor wouldn't cause damage and would be fine, so I never replaced it and a year or so later I got the P0420 code. Many searches on this have said that a bad 02 sensor may have caused this to happen.

phootbag

Well, unless you are going to try holding the shop accountable for the cat going bad because they said a faulty O2 sensor wouldn't damage the cat ( you'd have to prove the O2 sensor ruined the cat anyway ) it looks like you need to open your wallet and buy a cat.

You can replace the sensor by itself but it is much easier to replace the entire distributor instead.

Remember, the advice given here is worth exactly what you pay for it.

slamstrom

Not sure about your Civic, but I just fixed my P420 issue about 3 months ago. I was getting a P420 code on my 98 Accord with 140Kmiles and I reset the CEL to see if I get the same code. I did get the same code within a week. I reset about 3 times and then I got a bank1 O2 failure. Code P420 is catalytic efficiency below threshold, not bad CAT (likely, but not always). All it is doing is taking the measurement from the bank 1 O2 front/exhaust manifold (not sure if the O2 sensor is at the exhaust manifold for your Civic) and comparing to the O2 from bank 2 back/Catalytic converter. If one or both your O2 sensors are going bad, then it will trigger a P420 first prior to a bad O2 sensor (forgot what that code was, but I got that after about 3 resets). On the other hand your catalytic converter can also be going bad. In my case, since the OEM Cat was about $500 and the OEM O2 is about $120 online from http://www.hondapartscheap.com/south...catdisplay.jsp
I replaced the O2 first to see if the P420 goes away (about a month after I got my first P420 code). Right after the new O2 was installed, I got a P420 code within the day. I figured the O2 sensor may have picked up some debris from the O2 replacement. I reset the CEL again, and it running good for about 3 months with no CEL. If your O2 is on the exhaust manifold, that is a 15 minute job. By the way, I was actually getting better gas mileage with the P420 CEL.

Since your Civic has 175k, the O2 sensor will need to be replace soon anyway. My recommendation is to replace the O2 sensor, and wait to see if it fix the issue. If it doesn't, the you may need to replace the CAT. Hope this helps.

phootbag

In my years of working on cars I have never seen a faulty oxygen sensor fail in such a way as to set a false P0420 DTC.

The ECM monitors the voltage fluctuations of the secondary oxygen sensor. If the fluctuations match a pattern pre-programmed into the vehicle software for the failure of the P0420 monitor the monitor will fail and the DTC will set. The fluctuations are such that I seriously doubt a failure of the secondary oxygen sensor ( the secondary is for monitoring of the catalyst performance while the primary is responsible for sending feed back about fuel control to keep the catalyst from becoming saturated and inoperative ) will cause a false P0420.

js999

Phootbag thanks for your replies. As far as the TDC Sensor I am still confused. On the 2000 Civic EX, is it in the distributor or is it under the timing belt cover? Or is the distributor itself under the timing belt cover? I am confused as to why I was told I needed to replace the entire distributor and that I can't just replace the sensor, when I can buy the sensor by itself online for about $40 ( 37500-P2F-A01 SENSOR ASSY., CRANKSHAFT (TEXAS INSTRUMENTS) A new distributor is $390, big difference!

1. So lets first deal with that question about replacing the distributor/vs just the Top Dead Centor Senor. One dealer told me that this part # I listed is not the TDC sensor, when 2 others and that online parts dealer (who is also a Honda Dealership) said it was.

2. Where is this sensor located? I was quote about between 1-2 hours the other day to replace the sensor. Another place like I said told me it would be 3.5 hours and that since it was like doing a timing belt job, I should just replace the timing belt and water pump now along with the sensor. So again a major discrepancy between what I am being told.

3. As far as the CAT, I have no problem replacing the CAT if it is in deed bad now. Like I said many people say that a bad sensor can also cause a P0420, and others say it is 100% a bad CAT. The sensors are about $200. THE CEL is not calling for the 02 to be replaced but like I said I was told about a year or year and a half ago that it did call for it (I don't know which one it said to replace). I have driven the car without replacing it for that long. I was told that doing this caused the engine to run too rich and that made the CAT go bad. I understand there are 2 O2 sensors, one behind the CAT that from what I was told only tell you whether the CAT is bad, and the other (not sure where it is located) that deals with the fuel mixture and is probably the one that went bad and caused my CAT to burn out. Should I just replace the one O2 sensor (not the one behind the CAT) and see what happens, or just replace the O2 and the CAT.
I was quote 1.5 hours to replace the CAT and that he would do the 02 sensor included in that. The labor on the 02 sensor by itself is 1 hour.

Thanks for the replies.!!

HondaPartsHero

HondaPartsHero

1336 or 1337 would be the crankshaft speed fluctuation sensor and is the one behind the timing cover