TheMechanic27

Hi guys so i have seen many different forums about Frankenstein Motors and I haven't seen one that specifically has the components that I have. A little bit of background I used to have a 99 Accord with the f23 A1 and the motor went bye-bye on it and so I pulled off the throttle body in the intake manifold from that occurred because I had heard that it was a direct bolt-on to the f22b2 motor. I I have ported and Polished the manifold in the throttle body and and I have also pull the cam from an F-22 A6 motor a 1992 Accord my question is with the headers intake exhaust that I currently have on this vehicle are these components that will bolt right on with little to no modifications? From everything that I read it seems as though these are things that I can bolt right up for direct horsepower gains because I know the head on the F-22 B2has very bad airflow soairflow so I'm hoping to to improve the flow withwith the f23 intake manifold and throttle body and I'm hoping the cam should be a direct fit without having to change the valves I am planning on putting the Springs from the f22a6 in here as well since they're a little bit stronger I guess my question for you guys is is it in my best interest to find an ECU or chip my ECU to get it tuned and are these modifications that you think will make a noticeable difference on my car possibly in the range of 200 + wheel horsepower with just a motor. I have a horsepower goal of 350 to 400 someday with the turbo obviously but for now these are very cheap upgrades they didn't cost me anything I pulled the cam from a junkyard for 20 bucks and the manifold in the throttle body came off of my old car that I already had and my new 97 LX already had headers intake and exhaust on it so these are mods that are only going to cost me time so I'm hoping the community can help answer some of these questions for me and let me know what they think I've never seen anybody attempt to do this so I would appreciate any and all feedback.

MAD_MIKE

B2 on a good day made 130HP
A6 made ~140HP
A1 made~ 150HP

If by some miracle these parts work together, you may be in the 140HP range after a tune.

If you want the car to be quicker, you would be best at replacing the transmission with a lower geared one from a Prelude.

GhostAccord

The only benefit to the A6 camshaft over the A1 was 6* of lobe separation angle, aka overlap. And a whopping 0.015" of lift. The F22B2 camshaft has the same LSA as the A6 and only 0.025" less lobe height. so I would assume that is less than 0.015" of lift. The F23A1-5 and F22B1-2 throttle bodies are the same ID at the throttle plate. So unless you sent your throttle body out to Maxbore and had the throttle body bored out, there are no gains to be had there ether. The F23A1-5 upper intake manifold is of a larger volume and the runners are shorter, therefore there would be some throttle response gains from doing that mod. However, you will not add 50whp swapping stock cams and intakes on an F22B2 engine.

Best bet would be to drop in a complete F23 and boost it!

TheMechanic27

Thanks for the responses but neither of you actually answered my question.
My biggest question was about the cam, would it drop right in and will the ECU be able to handle the changes wthout a tune?
Mad mike, you didnt even make an informed response of any kind except for the HP ratings.
I will make sure to post the dyno results when ImIm finished. Had you done your homework you would know that all three of those parts are direct bolt on for the f22b2 (save for the 2 hole IACV adapter needed)
Ghost Honda, the plan IS to boost the car, but it takes time and money and since this is my daily imI moving step by step, I want to keep making it faster and more fun with each step until its turbo time!
These 3 parts were free because both came from other junk Hondas I had around.
And yes, its barely more aggressive on the cam, but we all know the head on the f22b2 has AWFUL airflow and it Chokes out quick. So these are FREE mods to start. The car already has DC headers, intake and Exhaust. FYI, i did port and polish the f23 throttle body as well as the intake manifold. The goal is to do something different that nobody else has done and this is going to be the ultimate budget build up until boost, at which point Ill pull the motor and do it right. These motors have so much potential for power if they are opened up and these mods are going to totally open up the airflow on the head. Ive heard the stock ECU can also adjust for a 255lph fuel pump and 450 dsm injectors. Those are also cheap mods. So basically it might sound crazy but I really believe i can get really close to 200hp for nothing more than 300$ and a little bit of time.
I guess I will keep everyone updated on How it goes and post pics of the progress and stuff. I may be reaching here but its not going to stop me from trying, I've done so much research and reading on the f22b2 motor, and having owned a 99 accord with the f23 as a daily, i mucm prefer the f22b2 motor, its much stronger and to be honest I think my 97 with the headers, intake and exhaust is already much quicker than the f23 vtec motor. Wish me luck I will let you kmow what happens.

TheMechanic27

So yea imI not expecting 50whp from an intake and cam swap, i think i can pull 50 from a port and polished f23 throttle nodb and intake runners, with the addition of the slightly more aggressive cam (with the springs/retainers too) and with the headers, CAI and exhaust already in place i i think its going to make a HUGE difference on the car. And if i include a 255lph fuel pump amd 450 dsm injectors (FPR and AEM rail will be added at some point for boost) but i see no reason why i I couldnt get 200+ out of it. Especially if i added a tune to it.
if im wrong or anyone wants to add to it or offer suggestions (besides boosting it!!!...duh that the endgame!) Im open to any feedback unless you just wanna be a troll about it lol!

TheMechanic27

One last piece, no reason to change transmission to a lower geared prelude one, im im dropping an h22 in yet. The long accord gears are good for boost so besides a stage 2 or 3 clutch I'm going to leave the transmission (it already has short throw)

GhostAccord

Then maybe you should have been more specific in your original question and not rambled on.

Yes it will drop in and the ECU will work just fine..... Why? because, as I stated above, there isn't enough of a difference between the cams you have listed to warrant a tune, they are all stock profiles. You aren't really adding anything.

Well each step you take to make it more fun in naturally aspirated form takes you further from what you will want for your goal of a forced induction build.

I'm not sure what "we" all know but I know that the F22B2/1 and F23 heads are not the choke point on a stock F22A or B camshaft. The low lift flow numbers are actually better than the PT3 head casting (F22A1-6).

I'm going to be brutally honest here. You might want to google budget F22 builds, these questions that you are asking are not new. This has all been done before. And if you ported the throttle body without increasing the size of the throttle plate.....no gains!

Not sure where you heard that but the stock ECU will only accommodate an increase of fuel flow up to 15%..... and with that it actually cuts the trims by 15% so there is absolutely no gain to going with larger injectors on a stock ECU. You will definitely need a tune for larger injectors.

As far as 255lph pump..... the ECU doesn't really care about liters per hour, it's fueling is based on fuel pressure and injector flow rates. if your 255lph pump increases the fuel pressure, thus increasing the flow rate of the stock injector, it will also only compensate for up to 15%. As a fuel cut..... again no gains without a tune.


Best of luck..... the F23 is actually a much better motor for your end goals...... just saying!

Most of us already know what is going to happen

Cheers!

TheMechanic27

Wow there is so much **** talkingshit talking going on here I don't even know what to do with myself I had heard that the Honda forms were a little bit rough and then all you guys acted like you were better than everybody else and that you talktalk down to everybody I just didn't believe it and I figured that if I came in here well read up on what I wanted to talk about that you guys wouldn't do that to me but I was wrong.
The the flip side I coin is that you guys are putting words in my mouth now and you are picking a part the thread on things that don't matter that are important you guys are all supposed to be Honda enthusiast we're all supposed to be helping each other enjoy our Honda's but if you don't boost it with an H 22 and spent 10 grand on your bills you ain't shyt? That's pretty ******* ridiculous if you ask me so since you did it to me I'm going to do it to you and I'm going to pick a part one by one your guyses responses first of all number one no people don't do this all the time that's why I posted this thread I have been reading for months and months on and on this Pacific topic on building and f-22 and nobody has done this combination of Parts before yeah people through the F 23 intake manifold they hook it up to the ******* f-22 all the time but nobody's port and polish the intake and put it on. ya people have put the cam in an f-22 but not in combination with the intake manifold and the throttle body. I haven't seen anybody that's had the intake manifold port and polished, throttle body port and polished with a bigger throttle plate (70mm) with exhaust headers and 3in exhaust all the way back and a cold aor intake.... AndAnd I never said anywhere in my post that the stock ECU could only handle a 15% increase in fuel flow nono what I said is that adding a bigger fuel pump and fuel injectors could be done on the stock ECU without having to do a custom tune because the stock ECU can actually adjust for the very small increase in fuel flow and fuel injectors. II had read and researched that this ECU could dream app honest own for the small increase any bigger and you need to get a custom to and I don't care what googling and f-22 budget build will pull up the point of a budget build is to get increases in horsepower and have more fun with your car for the least amount of money possible which is exactly what I'm trying to do so don't hate on me for trying to do it oh and by the way these motors are boosted with stock internals all the time so what do you mean all of these things that I'm trying to do are going to put me further and further away from a turbo build no actually it's not going to do that at all the intake manifold is actually going to help me prepare for a turbo so will the fuel injectors in the fuel pump as well the 3-inch back exhaust ohoh and the wideband O2 sensor that I have and they're short throw shifter that's already here. I have an H22 A4 sitting on my garage floor and that's an entirely different side project that's going to be built and put into this car when it's done however until then I'm going to have some fun with the stock motor and and I'm going to do a little bit of experimenting because nobody has done this combination of things before and if somebody can find it for me I will gladly say that I am wrong but in the months and months of research that I've done leading up to this I didn't find a single person. So please stop being a bunch of ******* haters and acting like you know more than me and that you're better than me and looking down on me because I'm not putting an H22 in here and boosting it we don't all have that kind of money right off the top bud okay you guys sit up there and just freaking be down people that are new to the scene I've been a mechanic my entire life man I know a little bit about turning wrenches okay I'm a little bit new to the whole building a Honda thing but a motor is a motor and are air fuel Spark so what that the cam only has a tiny difference a tiny increase in opening well with a bigger throttle body which by the way is going to provide Snappy or throttle response which you're not going to get any game from a ported throttle body however the ported intake runners are going to improve the air flow volume into the head and with the lifters staying open that much longer you telling me that won't lead to any kind of power gain at all is kind of ignorant it'sit's science Motors are simple I'm adding more volume into the cylinder and if if I decide to increase the fuel pump size as well as the injector size if indeed the stock ECU can use my wideband O2 sensor that is installed in my aftermarket headers to help remap the air fuel ratio without having to pay for a tune then is thatis that right there my friend is exactly the definition of a budget build so since nobody is wanting to help me andand give meme and useful information I will just go ahead and do it and I will show you guys when I'm done how much of a difference did it actually did make because I still think I can make 200 wheel horsepower and I would love to be able to prove that so I'm going to try my hardest to to do that for under $300

GhostAccord

Have to admit I couldn't read your post. The first 4 lines gave me a headache. The only one doing any sort of **** talking here is you.

Best of luck with this. Hope you can find someone to help you with your $300 budget build, because it won't be anyone on this or any other site. Specially if you type and act like this all the time. With posts like the one above, it really comes off that you are trolling. Please stop wasting our time.

Oh and a build thread isn't Shyte without pics..... post up pics of all these beautiful ported and polished parts, if you have any.

TheMechanic27

It was late, I was tired and upset.
I am not trolling, I feel like I'm being trolled.
You guys seem to be missing the point and putting words into my mouth, and no one seems to actually understand that I'm just having a little fun with all of this. Not one person is excited or supportive of this, Ghost Accord is just on here proving he his better than everyone. Therfore I am now using all correct grammar and punctuation so he has one less thing to talk **** about.
As for the build and anyone who is curious about what I'm doing and why here is a summary.
I currently have a 97 accord with an f22b2 motor, it has DC headers, Ebay CAI, amd EBAY Exhaust.
I had a junk 99 accord and a junk 91 accord that i i just got rid of, but before I let them go I did some reading/research on interchangeable parts, not only to address some issues the 97 had but also to see if there were any performance gains to be had.
I am eventually H22 swapping this beast but in the meantime I would like to have a little fun with the stock motor. People boost f22b2 with stock internals all the time and I may do that as well, however for now, this is what I have to work with.
In my research/reading I found out the f23a1 intake manifold and throttle body were direct bolt ons, and with the larger volume runners from the f23 it was sure to make a noticeable difference in the car. The F22b2 head is known for its poor airflow and lack of high rpm power so I figured surely this addition would help the car breathe better. The throttle body is the same size so no gain to be had there, but since I had a dremmel and some time I figured, what the heck, lets port and polish the throttle body and the intake manifold, thats free HP right there.
So, thats in progress as we speak, amd yes, pictures will be posted surely. So far, ive spent 50$ on a dremmel amd invested some time and thats it.
I started wondering what else I could do for next to nothing. As I was learning about cams and researching all these different Honda builds I learned that the earlier accord amd 95 oddesy with the same f22 block actually had a much better head design as well asa slightly more aggressive cam lobe. And people swapped heads all the time.
I just wanted the cam, so i pulled the came and when I have time I will pull the springs and retaining clips as well. Surely aore aggressive cam paired with the exhaust setup and an upgraded intake setup would help the car breathe better and make more power?!?! Well, as car guys know, when yiu start adding more air, you need to start adding more fuel as well, so I began reading/researching the fuel systems and what people have done to the f22b2. Turns out one gentleman that did a motor build added a 310lph fuel pump with a FPR and 450 DSM injectors. One question he got was about tuning the car at that point. He said, no, the stock ECU was actually able to re-map the air/fuel on its own with the addition of a wideband o2 sensor. He said had he gone any bigger he would have needed to flash his ECU. So i figured, hey, I know a guy with a junk 4G63T laying around I could snag the injectors from (since I discovered those injectors are pretty much plug and play) and a 255lph AEM fuel pump on EBAY was 20$.
So at the end of the day I am just having a bit of fun with the stock motor and Im not trying to spend too much money because my money is all going into thr turbo h22. So I hope that clarifies everything,. Especially to this troll Ghost Accord, Mr. Holyer than thou. So please, either contribute in a positive, productive manner, or pound sand 😀
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MAD_MIKE

Did I just read the 'Navy Seal Copypasta'?

GhostAccord

by GhostAccord, on Flickr

Aradin

Well, that escalated quickly.

GhostAccord

FYI, it is not possible to port the stock F23 intake manifold inlet or the F23 throttle body (throttle plate) out to 70mm without a lot of welding. You might have ported the throttle body inlet out to 60-61mm but that would be about it. You must have an aftermarket throttle body if it is 70mm @ the plate. If you do, this wouldn't be much, if any, of a gain on the 60-62mm (63mm max) F23 intake manifold inlet.

I have 2 PAA IPT 5 - F23A* upper intake manifolds and throttle bodies sitting here on my bench as we speak.

Aradin

Can confirm. I ported one when I was still running a SOHC setup. I got to about 63mm and wore through the aluminum in a few spots. I ended up sealing them with JB weld and it worked fine but I was stopped there. The best I could do was port and taper the throttle body spacer I was using down from 70mm at the aftermarket throttle body to 63mm-ish on the intake manifold side.

GhostAccord

I'm not here to look down on nor put anyone's build down. I am here simply to stop people from posting misinformation about things that have been done many times in the tuning world. And again, this post has a large percentage of misinformation. Or should I say, misinterpreted research.

For example, a stock ECU will not "re-map" for a 310lph fuel pump running DSM 450 injectors. A stock ECU will not read a wideband O2. And the stock ECU cannot be flashed. The DSM injectors are somewhat plug and play, in that they physically fit in the fuel rail. They will require the OEM injector connectors to be replaced. Easily done they sell the pigtail connectors on eBay cheap.

Could you post a link to the gentleman's build thread that you found this information from please. I'm guessing he ether has a chipped ECU or he's full of ****.

And the 94-95 F series had the same POA (VTEC) and P0B (Non VTEC) head castings as the 96-97. It was the earlier 90-93 PT3 head casting that had the different port geometry. And it only flowed more at higher RPM if you ported the exhaust side or added larger exhaust valves and seats. The F22B1/2 P0A/P0B head castings had better flow rates at low lift and equal at higher RPM to a stock PT3. Also as I noted above, the "more aggressive" A6 camshaft, was only more aggressive as compared to it's F22A1 & 4 counterparts. It was not as aggressive compared to the P0A, P0B & PAA camshafts that came along in the later model Accords 94-02.

You can say what you want but, I have been researching and playing around with the F series engines for well for over 15 years now. I don't need to google specs, I have the shop manuals and 15 yeras of personal information right here. So if you want to say that I am talking ****, think I'm better than everyone and not here to help. Giv'er, she's a free country. However, that being said. I think there are more than a few people that have browsed this forum that would disagree with you. Sure I can be blunt and seem somewhat condescending at times. If you were around this forum for more than a week you would know how often these sorts of questions get asked. It gets rather boring when people don't know how to do their own research and want to be spoon fed. Would you rather me have said, ya sure all those parts work, go ahead. Spend all your time and money doing all the stuff that has "never been done before". Then when it doesn't work, come back and blame the forum for spoon feeding you the wrong information...LMFAO!

You seem to have done some research, but it seems that your specs on some of the parts are off and the information you are saying that you found is incorrect. That or it is missing some key information. I'm just trying to help you sort out the misinformation or misunderstood information you are posting.

You are not the first one who has been pissed off by not liking what I tell them. Trust me, I have seen more builds go wrong over the years because kids have tried their hardest to prove the wealth of knowledge on this forum wrong! Please don't be one of them. All it will do is cost you time and money in the long run. Take the information we give you hear and make an informed decision on what you want to do with your car(s).


So to answer your original question, yes the F23 throttle body, intake manifold and F22A6 camshaft will bolt onto and into your F22B2. You do not need the 25 year old springs and retainers from the F22A6 head. The F22B2 ones will be more than enough. And you will not need larger injectors if all you are doing are these bolt-ons. The stock fuel injectors are more than enough to compensate for all the parts you have mentioned. No tune or wideband O2 are require ether. But if you want to get the most bang out of your build, a tune would help.

Cheers

MAD_MIKE

PGM-FI is too busy calculating airmass, no way it can adapt to changes to the basic VE of the engine not in its tables.


Nice Ninja edit though master troller.

GhostAccord

Who...what?

MAD_MIKE

Not you GA. My post was #10 and now it's #11.
#8 was 'navy seal' rant, #9 was your reply, #10 was my post, #11 was short bus post.
Now post #10 is an 'apology' post.

If you hold open a reply post on certain forums, but do not post immediately, it will hold that spot even if there was posting done during/before the post. It can be used as a form of 'griefing' on forums.

GhostAccord

Ah...I thought something looked out of place... the big apology and **** talking me post wasn't there when I posted up the short bus. If it were I wouldn't have posted the short bus. I probably wouldn't have been so polite in my response ether.

So greifing and trolling = ********! I get it.

MAD_MIKE

GhostAccord

Any Updates?

Ceedee5

Can I bump this? I know its well over a couple years old.. but I really would like to see how the build went with the bigger injectors and fuel pump without a tune. I never heard of a stock ecu re mapping for bigger injectors. If this information is true 👍 I would love to see pics and any updates on it please if you will? This will be a game changer?? So original poster.. any updates? Not trolling by the way, I really want to know the updates.

99stockcivic

Oh, you are new. Not meant to be disrespectful, but if you look through the forums over the years, the above is quite common. Idiot comes on, talks about a bunch of things that they are going to do, and then they disappear. It's almost always something along these lines, that they have "discovered" something, it's going to make amazing power, no one else has figured this out, and they argue with the regulars that we are mean to them or just aren't smart enough, blah blah. I'm pretty sure that guy is gone, never to be seen again.

Don't follow anything that ding-a-ling said. If you want GOOD advice, listen to GhostAccord and Mad Mike.

Mydadhadahonda

Yea even here in the future further down the road

while trying to do research and get info on builds I can see a lot of individuals on here crying a bit

but I do like the aspect of finding a post from over 10 years old. But don’t like there are literal 20,000 posts for 1 question I’m trying to get answers to lol

i find just doing it and asking dumb questions get someone pissed off enough to answer my question works very well lol