Nine

Im having an argument with a friend of mine about which nitrous system will give me more horsepower... the ZEX dry kit or the NOS EFI Noszle Direct Port kit. The catch is that they would be used on a JRSC'ed engine.

I figure, that given the same size shot, the ZEX dry kit would give more hp because of the obvious cooling benefits to the JRSC by injecting the nitrous early on in the CAI.. but he insists that a direct port setup would give more hp regardless.

He said that a b16a w/ the 8.5lb pulley w/ the NOS EFI kit would make more power then a b16a w/ a 10lb pullet w/ the ZEX dry kit. Given the same shot.

Can you guys help us settle this debate.. im pretty sure that by cooling the intake temps of the jrsc, the ZEX kit should work A LOT better then the NOS EFI kit, but I might be mistaken. Please assume that all other variables are the same such as fuel management and ignition timing, etc etc.. TIA


[Modified by Nine, 8:14 PM 3/10/2003]

Enzo-Racing

You should take a ride in a car with a direct port setup and see for yourself.

The Direct Port setup will make more power!!!

Nine

I understand how in most situations it would make more power but I am almost positive that in this case, it would not. The NOS EFI system uses the fuel injectors to inject the nitrous, in a JRSC situation where temps are rediculously high, this would cool the engine less then injecting it in the intake tubing. It would be more beneficial for the cool air to enter the blower before it entered the engine right?

dfoxengr

direct port always gives more power right..? since its mixed in with the fuel injection...

Nine

I need someone to back up these statements with an explanation.. I can't emphasize enough how different nitrous effects a JRSC then it does anything else. It almost doubles the hp from a the name of the shot.. 30 dry shot = 50-60 whp. Will a direct port setup do the same and more?

*Boostwerks*

Just a little FYI...

Zex now makes a wet kit....

Nine

Neato. Where is all my JR peeps tonight? I thought we'd be able to settle this tonight but its not looking that way.

*Boostwerks*

The only real way of telling is dyno'n the car with both individual setups.

Not worth it.

laughinxxx

[QUOTE The NOS EFI system uses the fuel injectors to inject the nitrous, ?[/QUOTE]
Nope. They spray with the nitrous through the fancy fogger that the NOSzles kit uses. That's why you see a fuel solenoid included with the kit. I would never want to tune a dry kit with a boosted motor. It would either blow or make crap power. Personally, I'd go wet and save myself the headaches.
It's a funny thing that you are arguing about because with nitrous if one kit makes a bit more hp than another all that you have to do is up the jets to even it out.

Nine

Sorry if I ended up saying something I didnt mean, but I meant that the NOSzles are housed at the same location as the stock fuel injectors which are incorperated in the NOSzle injectors.

This debate isnt going quite the way I had hoped.. no one is addressing the cooling issues of the nitrous on the JRSC, which is what we are really trying to figure out. Tuning a small dry shot is not that hard to do.. especially with the ZEX kit because it regulates the nitrous to fuel ratio depending on bottle pressures, which is what standalones and piggy backs have a hard time doing.

Single fogger wet kits are outta the question on a JRSC just cuz of the uneven fuel/nitrous distribution caused by the blower's rotors. I know people out there know about this subject, so please chime in.

laughinxxx

1. Nobody is addressing it because it is a non-issue. If you want more hp then you put in a larger pill. Any cooling affects that you gain are an added bonus. On one hand you have a nitrous and moving towards a commong equilibrium temperature in the intake tract. On the other you have nitrous and fuel being sprayed an inch away from the head, giving it much less time to be warmed up by the incoming air. We'll disregard the heat from the engine because both scenarios will be subjected to it. Now the question that you have to ask yourself is whether the nitrous will warm up quicker in the distance from the injectors to the combustion chambers or in the distance from the nitrous nozzle plumbed into the intake tubing to the combustion chanmbers. That's roughly 6 inches vs a minimum of roughly 2 feet. It appears to be obvious that the NOSzles kit will provide you with cooler incoming air.
2. If you are running a fuel pressure riser and a dry nitrous shot, both will be trying to increase the fule pressure via vaccuum tubes to the fpr. That's asking for trouble. A wet kit would allow you to tune you JRSC'd engine off of the bottle at each boost level, and then all that you have to do is throw in the correct jet combo for the nitrous. If you are worried about running lean jet the nitrous a bit richer than normal.
3. So a JRSC will distribute the fuel/nitrous mixture unevenly, but distribute the nitrous evenly? Let's be realistic here. If anything I'd rather have more nitrous and fuel go to one cylinder than have a skewed nitrous distribution across all cylinders and even fuel across all cylinders. At least that way I wouldn't be detonating.

Nine

Its not a non-issue.. its about the most effecient way to run nitrous in a JRSC'ed car. I am really spraying more to cool the intake temps for the blower then I am for the added oxygen from the N20 itself.. thats more of a bonus. If I am gonna be using a 10lb pulley at the track, I wanna know which is gonna not only give me the most hp from the nitrous itself, but what is gonna cool my intake temps down so that the blower itself does not become heatsoaked, and utterly useless. Now, im not trying to question your knowledge on this but do you actually have any experience with this? Not like you heard someone talk about it or you saw it in a magazine, but did you ever actually work on a car with this type of setup. That is what I am looking for.. not sideliner speculation. If you are talking out of experience then lets continue discussing if you don't mind taking the time. One would think that if you lower the intake temps after the blower, that although colder air would be entering the engine, it would not effect the air temperitures inside the supercharger, which would still be getting heat soaked and ineffective.

I understand that if I was going to use a larger shot, the most effective way to do it would be direct port injection because of fuel and tuning issues, but we are talking about a 55 ZEX shot.. the lowest possible nozzle that the kit comes with (ZEX rates their shots at the flywheel.. its really only a 35 shot or so). I think with the standalone we will be using that tuning won't be that much of an issue.. its certainly manageable.

Tuning will not be that big an issue im happy to report. Whatever the outcome of this debate, Ill be using a standalone to manage fuel and ignition, even if we keep the nitrous shot at its current low level. We arent gonna be using the JR fuel management componants, and im sorry if I did not speak of that sooner. I wasnt planning on getting into the specifics, but rather the overall concept.


The dry nitrous gas doesn't collect on the rotors the way the the nitrous/fuel mix does. It still might not be distributed evenly but it won't be any more unevenly distributed then if the blower wasnt there.

*edit: This is so annoying.. i've been searching topics on this for a long time (not just on this board) and everybody is disagreeing with everybody else. I'm hoping that as long as my shot is small enough, I won't be screwing anything up no matter which route we decide to go.


[Modified by Nine, 3:51 PM 3/11/2003]

laughinxxx

1. If you wanted efficiency you should have went with a turbo. I was addressing the original post in which you stated, "which nitrous system will give me more horsepower... the ZEX dry kit or the NOS EFI Noszle Direct Port kit."
2. That would have been a good thing to say in your original post.
3. You said you'd be taking the car to the "track." I am assuming that you mean the drag strip. In this case I'd stop by a gas station and get a big *** bag of ice to set on your JRSC between runs. Hell, even if you are using nitrous with a JRSC I'd still do this.
4. I have experience with cooling down JRSCs with nitrous. I relayed the information that I learned when a friend and I installed a dry kit on a turbo'd LS. You've addressed those tuning issues so I have nothing further to add.
5. It appears that I am not the person that you need to talk to. Good luck.

Nine

Thank you for your replies and your patience, im sorry if my intentions were unclear in my first post.

RyanEJ8

The Zex Kit will give a wonderful intercooling effect. A 55 shot should be cake to tune.

thrty8street

iTrader: (7)

get the NOS direct port, the zex is good for ease of instalation and minimal power. most people end of selling their zex for a Nitrous Express or NOS system. it is also safer than dry injection with good tuning with air/fuel setup.

Nine

Sigh. Let me try this again. Since the consensus seems to be that the EFI system will give more hp given the same shot, can someone please explain why this is. I'm not talking about which will be easier to tune, im not talking about which has the potential to run a bigger shot safely. I'm asking given a small shot of nitrous which one would give the engine more hp.

Please do not forget this is on a JRSC'ed b16a, so normal nitrous results to not neccesarilly apply.


[Modified by Nine, 8:20 PM 3/11/2003]

1strdtko

Go with the Nitrous Express Dp kit!

Nine

Im gonna find where you live and kill you.

EDIT: I hate trolls..


[Modified by Nine, 9:58 PM 3/11/2003]

Josho_17

haha, i just read this thread and its pretty funny... somebody answer the mans questions! If i understand you right, your saying that the Zex dry kit will give the supercharger an intercooler effect by reducing the intake temperature as oppose to the MPFI kit that doesn't give a cooler intake temp. because it is injected with the fuel... so lets compare a 75 shot of NOS vs. a 75 shot of Zex... both will add 75 more hp, but through the intercooling process the zex will add more horsepower... thats my opinion and i tried to back it up.

TempBS

Thats kinda what he's trying to say except that its not the fact that its a wet kit that doesnt lower the blower's intake temps, its that the NOS kit is injected after the blower so that the cooling effects won't take place.



[Modified by TempBS, 3:23 AM 3/12/2003]

Josho_17

...thats kinda what i said... also you mentioned you wanted the most hp for No2 used, Zex claims that they have the best ratio. It is also cheaper, there is a kit on Ebay (yeah... i know) right now with a buy it now for $275 and with the money you'd save over the NOS kit your could get a bottle warmer (makes a big difference on the Zex kit) and a remote bottle opener... also are you running on stock internals?

hypa

Ahahahhahaha!
Can't get a straight answer, can you Nine?


As far as cooling the charge on a jrsc, you want to inject the nitrous as close to your air filter as possible. This will give the nitrous ample time to mix with the intake air, and chill it before it hits the blower. Once the chilled air and nitrous hit the blower, they'll transfer their cool to it. In effect you're getting double cooling effects. Your cooling all of your components, and the air itself. This is why a 30 shot can be up to a 50whp gain on a jrsc car. I haven't decided if I'm going with a wet or dry system, since running a second power adder on an NA car is tough. I do know though that if you run the NOSzle system, you'll lose out on the real benefits that nitrous offers us uncooled blower guys.

In a small shot application, a dry shot will make more power than a NOSzle system.

Now for some O/T, what about running a 2 stage nitrous shot?
First stage shoots into the intake charge, and the second stage runs through a NOSzle?
That would make stupid amounts of power.




[Modified by hypa, 4:05 PM 3/12/2003]

Nine

Haha, thanks hypa, i was just waiting for someone with actual jackson racing know-how to answer. I was actually thinking about doin dual stage system like that but i've never heard of anyone doing it before.

I think i might be getting a little ahead of myself though.. im already a little worried about whether or not my block will be able to handle the nitrous shot.. im at around 200 whp now, and planning on spraying a 55 shot (ZEX measures their shot to the crank), which i figure should maybe give me like 60 more hp approximately to the wheels. Im hoping I'll be able to handle that much for now, and then build up my block to handle the 10lb pulley and a 75 shot.. This should get me to the 300whp mark then.

*edit: spelling and grammar


[Modified by Nine, 4:07 PM 3/12/2003]

hypa

You should be okay for a short time if you're tuned well, but I'd be surprised if your stock components were able to handle 300whp for more than a tank or two of nitrous. A 55 shot will be a great method of chilling the intake, you just have to decide how you'll be altering your fuel to cover the added boost.

If 300whp is what you crave, why not go with a block guard, and a JE piston/Crower rod combo? That should easily handle 300-350whp.

edit: My car is sitting in my carport, stripped of the wideband, ECM, and motor, but it's still BC's quickest jrsc'd Honda hotbox (since that's all it's good for right now )


[Modified by hypa, 11:05 PM 3/12/2003]