So.. anti-lag is a big thing, not only for the back fire and popping but for the actual benefit it provides (the initial purpose of the device). But what if.. there was a ZERO lag system?

Anti-Lag or Zero-Lag! | SCRM Garage

Wow!

 

Applying a pulsejet directly to a turbo would flood the paperweight market with a quickness.

 

Cool concept but not practical @20k.

 

I am saying it with pictures instead...

 

For the most part anti lag is lagless, hence the name.

this device is totally beyond the realm of reasonable, even for multi million dollar factory backed race teams... and more so since I'm willing to bet most sanctioning bodies would never allow it.

most "lag" can be eliminated through proper setup, turbo sizing, manifold design, heat retention/rejection methods, and tuning.

the 2014 F1 cars use a zero lag system but it's much simpler. the KERS system has an electric motor coupled to the compressor wheel.. under most conditions it uses turbo shaft horsepower to recover that lost energy in the form of electricity. however under low rpm high load conditions the KERS puts power to the motor thus spinning up the turbine shaft independent of exhaust gasses, eliminating lag.

it's similar to the remote starting system on rc jet engines... there's a motor attached to the end of the compressor shaft/nut with coupling. the starting systems use a one way bearing so once shaft rpm exceeds the motor rpm it effectively disconnects the two.

we don't know how the f1 setup is coupled... since it would have to be a solid coupling. obviously the motor has to have very little in the way of friction and drag to avoid slowing down turbine speed and response.

obviously on a street car or even a track car you wouldn't need to use the turbo as a generator since you have an alternator and you aren't trying to extract every little bit of performance out of the motor to make it .001 faster per lap.

I've debated about experimenting with some of my smaller, cheaper turbos to test and possibly develop a similar method of reducing turbo lag. simply an electric motor, one way bearing, shaft to connect the two, turbo shaft speed sensor, some sort of logic level motor controller that uses engine rpm/load/intake manifold pressure/tps/turbo shaft speed or some combination of these elements to determine when and how aggressively to increase turbine shaft speed independent of engine rpm.

obviously the controller would be programmable... allowing for different response profiles, varying degrees of help from the electric motor ranging from no help to 100% help, and so on.

it's just a thought in my head at the moment. I'd need to locate a motor compact enough that generates sufficient torque to turn the shaft (obviously bigger wheel combos require more torque) while still having enough rpm capability to produce adequate boost pressure (100,000rpm or so... if that's even possible) and it might require gearing the motor up or down depending on setup variants (turbo size, boost levels, etc).

I've already drawn up how I would mount the electric motor, couple it, and so on. when I get home I'll post them. I think it could be a fun project... if not to turn it into a commercial product just the data from the project could be useful, or maybe just build it for me lol

 

I'm actually very interested in the above mentioned idea. Thought about going through with it .. I'd be willing to help you startup? Maybe we can get things going .. or at least get an idea of how much everything would cost ?

Make sure u post the drawings up here. So i can take a look

 

Seems good for a rally car with a 400HP turbo and a 2.0L motor, but try to spool up a 72mm turbo on a 1.8L you'll find that the anti-lag system may still a laggy system.

It's not hard to imagine the amount of energy that is required to spool up a massive turbo. Our Honda motors still need to be on a 2-step with spark retard/full WOT air stream and lots of unburnt fuel at roughly 5000RPM to get a big turbo building boost.

It sounds great for a rally car, or cars with smaller turbos, but it won't do us any good (those wanting 800+ HP street cars but would love to roll off the line with full power on the hit...lol)

 

The F1 teams are using the electrical motor system I mentioned on very very large turbos, granted the lightweight materials, bearing system, and wheel design play a big part in how well the system works.

to us mere mortals the electric motor version would work on a turbo no larger than say, a 3076r, due to the amount of torque needed to spin a bigger turbo the electric motor size would be too large to be properly packaged.

I lost my drawings but I'll work on drawing up the concept again as soon as I can.

integrating the control unit as a whole would be the hardest part... I'm fairly good with electronics but I'm not THAT good lol. it would definitely take an electrical engineer friend with some free time to figure that part out. mostly on how to integrate all of the possible software control methods and which signals they use for these adjustments. not to mention coding the interface itself.

 

Mercedes F1 team actually split the turbo apart so when it sits in the valley of the motor the compressor is in front of the motor and the turbine is at the back. the electric motor is actually part of the CHRA of the turbo.

it's still a "normal" turbo it just has a very long CHRA and turbine shaft. so basically the shaft has rotors on it with electrical windings and the CHRA has magnets inside of it along with the external windings (brushless digital motor).

 

Its pretty ingenius...Here's a vid if anyone is interested How Mercedes F1's Ingenious Split Turbo Works

 

The things you can do when money doesn't matter.

I have photos of the Renault motor turbo somewhere

 

Besides your electrical engineer friend, you would also want a very rich friend who will throw money at you... You know, friends who just drops you 6-figure lump sums everytime you smile.

The concept is proven, just like when the R35 GTR on the very early prototype days were rumoured to have an electrically assisted turbo.

Let's not talk about electric motors. I hate them, and it just reminds me of driving a Prius.

Let's talk about manly anti-lag systems that makes noise and pollution.

 

Lol I can set those up too, they're more fun anyways.

although since I used to work at a machine shop that did 100% custom CNC work I could easily design and engineer the system and just cut back on my party budget to get it done... although it's no replacement for a properly sized turbo and bang bang on high lol.

besides rotational idle sounds super sexy.

 

I would build the system just to intimidate people at the drive-thru...lol

 

Nothing says give me food like shooting flames lol

I'm currently debating between bypass or egr anti lag. the ignition timing method is so brutal on components. the throttle bypass method is ok but having a solenoid to feed pressurized air from after the intercooler and possibly an extra injector on that line to supply fuel directly into exhaust manifold is the best way to do it. eliminates wear and tear that the older anti lag systems caused to components, namely the turbo.

when I get home I'll post up some videos and photos of the various styles and examples.

 

Here's a pic of the bypass ALS setup on my Camry I took earlier this season... Been running it for a good while now and seems to work well, no stuff melting yet and EGT's don't seem to be a concern.



I haven't gone too aggressive yet with the post-fueling/ignition retard. The burst of bypassed airflow pre-turbine really keeps my turbo moving. The spool-down was significantly longer, and my throttle felt like it dropped to the floor momentarily between quick shifts because of the extra boost lingering in the system. I have a 90mm TB and the boost blows against the butterfly creating this odd feeling at the gas pedal and it becomes really floaty/soft between shifts.

I mainly did this setup to help with a drag-race/highway pull scenario, and it works quite well honestly.

 

I'll probably implement something like this on the civic since I'll be using a standalone. I don't have a Pectel SQ6 budget... yet. lol

I've just decided on my SVT to thermal wrap everything I can along with a properly sized turbo. As much as I hate MAF based engine management I don't want to ditch the stock ecu yet. I can get standalone-like functionality out of it with software and the big DD/don't have time to **** with it for emissions thing is what's driving me at the moment.

despite it being down for the last month and 2 weeks after I bought it for a fucked, literally fucked, fuel filter that looked like it was full of sand because it hadn't been changed in 79k and broke down. So I've been ripping the fuel system apart cleaning **** up.

I'll see what I can do with the stock ecu, since it has to have some sort of limit, and then I'll probably go standalone. Being an 04 the CANbus system in it isn't as advanced as later models so there's no problem with everything working without the stock ecu.

 

I love MAF based engine management. Ill take an SCT tune on a Ford over Hondata any day.

 

Odd why? Everyone in the Subaru world wants to switch to map. Mind telling me why?

Wantboost, seems likely you'll be incorporating every cool system or method out there... Hurry it up and get started. Its been a while since there's been a thread I can't wait to be updated

 

I'd rather use HPTuners... especially since STC won't let you see any of their interface.

Plus I'm stuck using the STC pro racer software and STC won't tell you if their obd-usb cable has extra 0-5v inputs for logging things like a wideband, etc. like HPTuners does. since there's no way to integrate a wideband into the stock Ford ecu

 

Well I have to move (again) this month. Then button up the SVT so I have a daily again. Then find a job, save monies, then work on cars.

Right now I need a friggin vacation though. I'm about to lose my mind

 

I probably like MAF based programming mainly cause I have had Mustangs my entire life. Its easier to tune, more forgiving, and you don't need a new tune everytime you do a simple mod cause the MAF meter will compensate to an extent.

My Lightning and Mustang are both SCT tuned. The support for SCT tunes is huge.

 

I'm weird, i like to at least look at the software before I pay for it.

Plus no one can seem to answer questions like when does the OEM svt focus maf reach its airflow/power limit, can you use it as a blow through, etc. Hell half of the people are still hung up on boosting a 10.2:1 compression motor like it's witchcraft or it will blow up regardless.

Most of the threads I read on focaljet and other threads make me literally lol.

 

Go with an SCT big air meter and you don't have to worry about pegging out the stock meter. I opted to go with a Diablo Mafia on my stock meter with the Lightning to extend its range. You can buy blow through meters that work really well. The stock one will work but doesn't react as fast as true blow through meter.

 

Aren't those built in to like 90mm housings? I need something that I can weld in/on 3" piping as a blow through fairly close to the TB. I thought about just getting a maf plate and welding it to the charge pipe. Trick would be finding a high(er) flow bolt in sensor. I've seen a few somewhere, if all else fails I'll just yank a stock one off a gt500 or something.

I do have a cobra maf off my old f150 and sohc v6 maf off of my old explorer.

I used the cobra maf on my sr s13 when my z32 died. Although from what I remember I think the cobra maf hated being setup as a blow through.

PM me, I'd like to pick your brain lol