VegasInvasion

I decided to make a formal tuner's report on methanol injection, and why it's a solid alternative to corn conversions (ethanol). Keep in mind this is done at 5280ft

First, the specs:
B20B1 8.5:1 CR built & sleeved.
eBay T3/T4 kit, .56-ish A/R, MBC @ 16psi
FMIC, 66mm throttle, stock IM, stock head.
Walbro 225 pump, Precision 1000cc inj.
MSD Streetfire CD, Neptune ECU triggered via PCS with dual maps.
Anything not listed is stock.

Devil's Own single stage injection kit, 100% methanol. Nozzle was installed in the charge pipe before the BOV and IAT at an angle to avoid condensation.
Juice kicks in a 4psi without wasting any time, and... well here's the results.



The engine ran hot and liked to knock so the pump gas tune had to stay pretty conservative, but as soon as it's juiced the IAT literally dropped from 160 to 60 at the top of the band, and you can see it even had an effect on spooling.
So naturally I had more room to amp up the timing, and at 16psi I made peak output with 13:1 AFR -- NO detonation.

The beauty of this is price; the kit ran $250, and pure methanol at the track goes for roughly $4/litre. Or you can use windshield de-icer and/or Heet to reduce your costs.
Compared to upgrading injectors, fuel pump, and a couple fuel filters to clean out the glaze, the hardware alone is a more practical option.
Not to mention you're consuming 33% more fuel with ethanol than pump gas, and you can't turn it off.

The only area where corn feeding is better, the combustion is cleaner than pump gas. Depending on how often you rebuild your engine, it may or may not be a problem for you.

Feel free to ask any questions, but this is an educational thread - if you troll here you will be publicly humiliated.

89efhatchy

iTrader: (2)

Nice write up. I'm a firm believer in meth injection. I'm surprised to see so few people talk about it in the Honda world.

twkdCD595

There is some serious hp cars locally on pump/ meth combo, definitely can work well. There is locals here making over 1000+ to the tire on some built LSX combinations. Running premium pump fuel and LOTS of meth.

My only reservation with meth injection is pump failures. They can tell me all they want in their advertisements about how they have the latest greatest pump technology, will never ever fail, etc... but I still am very skeptical. I personally have seen two times where I witnessed meth injection pump failures on a pass. Both resulted in detonation bad enough to do damage. The warning lights most meth kits come with are about useless by the time you react, both people lifted as soon as they realized the kit did not come on but it was already damage done.

If I ever put meth injection on anything, I would look at set up a 'fail safe' type tune that can be triggered off a pressure switch in the pumps line to make sure it is pressurizing.

D-Rob

Just to stir the pot:

- What happens if the pump slows down (not completely dead, but stops flowing at 100%)? I know quite a few people that wouldn't be able to notice the AFR difference, and would end up melting things down.

- On an application that powers the pump on activation, how repeatable of a response do you think the system has? (I.E. activation in lower gears, and the delay of the pump providing a supply quick enough)

Adding a secondary self-contained fueling system adds benefits (as illustrated above) but also adds complexity.

gabocastano

Thanks for the info. What size of meth injector did you use? Was it progressive or on/off and at what load and rpm did it activate?

EFSedan#6

iTrader: (3)

I am currently interested in meth injection for my JRSC single cam.

SovXietday

I'm not a fan of meth. I agree that when it works it works wonderfully. The issues comes in having safety measures for the failures that will inevitably happen.

E85, you don't have to worry about not having ethanol in your blend on one of your pulls do to meth pump failure, clogged injector, etc etc etc.

turbociv910

in for melted piston thread

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Pre turbilo methanol injection has shown huge gains abd lower intake temps as well, since when the compressor wheel compresses the air/meth mix, the methanol evaporates into a gaseous form reducing turbo outlet temps to ambient temp or below (in cooler summer weather/low humidity the hot side of the intercooler will actually have ice formation on the end tank)

I'll do a small write up addition to this thread on the subject. People also run methanol in the charge pipe in addition or do a direct port install, ensuring even distribution across all cylinders

EFSedan#6

iTrader: (3)

I'd appreciate some insight. I dont wanna blow my **** up. lol It is just my DD.

tepid1

It doesn't work as well as you may think. It's been tried time and time again. You'll see better results from injecting it into the charge instead of the compressor inlet.

Turbo is an air pump, not a water pump. lol

twkdCD595

Not to mention potential compressor wheel erosion over time.

tepid1

That and by introducing a fluid, even if its atomized, your slowing down the compressor speed. I would imagine that it loses some its atomization characteristics once it collides with the wheel too.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Aquamist figured out if aimed at the center of the wheel with an atomization nozzle that erosion stopped. When the air is compressed the methanol/water blend expands rapidly into a gas taking heat with it

Aquamist and a few others have tried this method with great success. They use a minimum 70-100% methanol blend. The 50/50 showed little results. They have a fixture that fits in the inlet of the turbo and aims the atomization cloud at the center of the shaft, they did a lot of testing and they saw no erosion, unlike setups that aim it to one side of the wheel (which also causes methanol to bead up along the walls of the housing inlet, a main cause of erosion... with aquamists method this doesn't happen)

Granted it takes higher pump pressure and the right nozzle, but it's beeb done with amazing results. Most run 100% methanol pre-turbo and then 70/30 at the throtle body/direct port setup.

Plus I'm having my compressor wheel hard anodized to prevent even the slighest chance of erosion, along with the interccoler piping, intake manifold, etc (it pays to be friends with an anodizing company lol) also might try to do just the inside of the intercooler core and endtanks

tepid1

The mist is just going to condense when it hits....
A: the compressor blade
B: the intercooler core

It will drop charge temps, but in all honesty, you'd get better results post intercooler.

You're not gaining much in turbo efficiency like those guys on the forum think. When you start seeing turbo compressor speeds then you'll understand why.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

I know all about them, but on the street/circuit where heatsoak can cause "false" charge air temps it's nice to have something to lower them

The one thing that needs to be taken into account is how much methanol is in the charge air (pre turbo and/or pre throttle body/direct port) as this will ultimately account for a good bit of fuel mass.

Some claim they get better economy (makes sense since you're burning methanol as well) as well as low IATs having some influence.
Some claim quicker spool, etc

I know it won't really improve compressor efficiency but pre turbo on it's own (when properly applicable) has shown great results, couple that with pre throttle or direct port applications and you've got an awesome system when flow rates and pressures and the proper nozzles are properly tuned/utilized as well as the primary tune (and failsafe measures)

4genaccordfreak

Also, having a "side-entry" intake manifold, can and will have a richer/leaner pair of cylinders. For example, cylinders 3 and 4 may see a slightly leaner meth-saturated mixture as opposed to 1 and 2, due to intake velocity that flows past runners 3/4 to hit the back-side of the manifold then into 1 and 2. Honda applications are sketchy when taking this into consideration unless you are a running a custom plenum with a center mounted throttle-body.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

A center oriented plenum for b series motors would be awesome but their isn't a lot of real estate to do so, plus the 90 degree turn into the plenum would make the airflow very unhappy

and as you stated charge pipe mounted setups will have uneven distribution between cylinders, this is why people have gone to the direct port method of methanol injection. Basically running a smaller jet in each intake runner to balance the methanol volume between cylinders while still flowing a similar amount overall compared to charge pipe mounted setups

Hidenplanvew

What were the exhaust temps OP? E85 will drop exhaust temps around 200 degress from 91-93 oct.Not to mention E85 will allow alot more compression and timming.

Balor_Gr

89efhatchy

iTrader: (2)

E85 isn't available everywhere.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Diluting methanol with distilled water is common practice and inhibits most of methanols corrosive nature. However like I stated in my previous post, any aluminum service that comes into contact with a methanol blend or pure methanol will be hard coat anodized to prevent any and all corrosion.

aqua mist did extensive testing wituhh pre turbo injection and pretty much got it down to a science. They have an article somewhere and a big topic on some random UK board discussing their technique and how they've advanced pre turbo injection to the point of having zero corrosion after their various testing methods.

Here is what aquamist developed

GoldLudeRay

meth injection is decent stuff....im running a stock b18a1 car with a dual stage nitrous shot of a .054 jet and .028 jet it totals somewhere in 140-150hp range...both kits are single foggers and im running only one nozzle with water only too and still have a decent amount of timming in it.....when everything is working correctly the kits work.....but like was said if I have an issue with pump or solenoid say bye bye stock ls motor with that much nitrous going through it

VegasInvasion

Methanol and Ethanol are both oxygenated hydrocarbons, and both alcohols - E85 is still 15% petrol; pure methanol has a higher oxygen content which will always allow better knock prevention, and because it's introduced into the charge during flow, it's provided more time to cool the charge and therefore the combustion temperature. I should have used an EGT during the test, alas I did not.

@4genaccordfreak, I don't believe port injected methanol is more effective than charge cooling, and defeats the economical purpose. If your cylinder VE is uneven, it's like that with or without meth and you need a higher quality manifold. A properly sized plenum uses resonance to equalize port flow even on a side entry manifold.

As far as failures are concerned, a pressure switch and a failsafe relay over your ICM or a signal to map switching will save any engine for about 20 bucks. Your existing fuel system is just as likely to fail.

VegasInvasion

The Devil's Own single stage system I used is not progressive, it activated at 4 or 5 psi regardless of RPM, governed by the Neptune system to the purge control solenoid. I believe it was a 300cc injector.

As far as the Aquastealth system, their injectors don't atomize as well with any amount of water content, and you have to install the entire injector elbow inside the pipe so it's a straight shot or it just condensates everywhere.

I advise against spraying the compressor, it's made for air, and methanol is corrosive. Plus the pressure loss and obstruction of the intercooler just makes it less effective. You may also spray the outside of the intercooler with methanol or nitrous, but some race tracks prohibit it.