WTF overstretched rod bolts, help!!!
#1
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
WTF overstretched rod bolts, help!!!
i'm flabbergasted...
got my manley H-beams with arp bolts
went on to installing everything.
- measured and documented free length
- put in bearings
- greased up the rod bolts with arp-lube
- handtighten the bolts and look up stretch on the form
- it needed a ,0058-,0062" stretch
- stretched it to ,0058" (just to measure the bearing clearance)
- bearing clearance was a bit big at ,003 (ACL Race HX bearings)
- undid the bolts to install the normal ACL race bearings
- measured the free length of the bolts just to be sure (better safe then sorry)
free length increased by ,00275"!!! WTF???
you have to replace if free length increases more then ,001"!
WTF just happened? used the ARP lube to reach desired stretch and it overstretches? big time!
now scared to touch my other bolts..... anyone had this happen before?
now that i think of it, it needed quite a bit of force to stretch the required amount...probably more then 65lbs, i was'nt worried tough seeing i was using arp-lube + stretch gauge + multiple times torqueing and loosening before reaching required stretch......
anyone?
got my manley H-beams with arp bolts
went on to installing everything.
- measured and documented free length
- put in bearings
- greased up the rod bolts with arp-lube
- handtighten the bolts and look up stretch on the form
- it needed a ,0058-,0062" stretch
- stretched it to ,0058" (just to measure the bearing clearance)
- bearing clearance was a bit big at ,003 (ACL Race HX bearings)
- undid the bolts to install the normal ACL race bearings
- measured the free length of the bolts just to be sure (better safe then sorry)
free length increased by ,00275"!!! WTF???
you have to replace if free length increases more then ,001"!
WTF just happened? used the ARP lube to reach desired stretch and it overstretches? big time!
now scared to touch my other bolts..... anyone had this happen before?
now that i think of it, it needed quite a bit of force to stretch the required amount...probably more then 65lbs, i was'nt worried tough seeing i was using arp-lube + stretch gauge + multiple times torqueing and loosening before reaching required stretch......
anyone?
#2
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Re: WTF overstretched rod bolts, help!!!
i'm flabbergasted...
got my manley H-beams with arp bolts
went on to installing everything.
- measured and documented free length
- put in bearings
- greased up the rod bolts with arp-lube
- handtighten the bolts and look up stretch on the form
- it needed a ,0058-,0062" stretch
- stretched it to ,0058" (just to measure the bearing clearance)
- bearing clearance was a bit big at ,003 (ACL Race HX bearings)
- undid the bolts to install the normal ACL race bearings
- measured the free length of the bolts just to be sure (better safe then sorry)
free length increased by ,00275"!!! WTF???
you have to replace if free length increases more then ,001"!
WTF just happened? used the ARP lube to reach desired stretch and it overstretches? big time!
now scared to touch my other bolts..... anyone had this happen before?
now that i think of it, it needed quite a bit of force to stretch the required amount...probably more then 65lbs, i was'nt worried tough seeing i was using arp-lube + stretch gauge + multiple times torqueing and loosening before reaching required stretch......
anyone?
got my manley H-beams with arp bolts
went on to installing everything.
- measured and documented free length
- put in bearings
- greased up the rod bolts with arp-lube
- handtighten the bolts and look up stretch on the form
- it needed a ,0058-,0062" stretch
- stretched it to ,0058" (just to measure the bearing clearance)
- bearing clearance was a bit big at ,003 (ACL Race HX bearings)
- undid the bolts to install the normal ACL race bearings
- measured the free length of the bolts just to be sure (better safe then sorry)
free length increased by ,00275"!!! WTF???
you have to replace if free length increases more then ,001"!
WTF just happened? used the ARP lube to reach desired stretch and it overstretches? big time!
now scared to touch my other bolts..... anyone had this happen before?
now that i think of it, it needed quite a bit of force to stretch the required amount...probably more then 65lbs, i was'nt worried tough seeing i was using arp-lube + stretch gauge + multiple times torqueing and loosening before reaching required stretch......
anyone?
#3
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: WTF overstretched rod bolts, help!!!
update:
rod #2 with fresh bolts i tried another tactic.
instead of stretching the bolt to the specified value, i torqued it in multiple steps to 45ft/lbs (commonly accepted as the value to torque to with the ARP lube)
1. 27ft/lbs and loosen
2. 45ft/lbs and loosen
3. 45ft/lbs and measure
measured only ,002" stretch where ,006" is specified......?
rod #2 with fresh bolts i tried another tactic.
instead of stretching the bolt to the specified value, i torqued it in multiple steps to 45ft/lbs (commonly accepted as the value to torque to with the ARP lube)
1. 27ft/lbs and loosen
2. 45ft/lbs and loosen
3. 45ft/lbs and measure
measured only ,002" stretch where ,006" is specified......?
#4
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Re: WTF overstretched rod bolts, help!!!
update:
rod #2 with fresh bolts i tried another tactic.
instead of stretching the bolt to the specified value, i torqued it in multiple steps to 45ft/lbs (commonly accepted as the value to torque to with the ARP lube)
1. 27ft/lbs and loosen
2. 45ft/lbs and loosen
3. 45ft/lbs and measure
measured only ,002" stretch where ,006" is specified......?
rod #2 with fresh bolts i tried another tactic.
instead of stretching the bolt to the specified value, i torqued it in multiple steps to 45ft/lbs (commonly accepted as the value to torque to with the ARP lube)
1. 27ft/lbs and loosen
2. 45ft/lbs and loosen
3. 45ft/lbs and measure
measured only ,002" stretch where ,006" is specified......?
But i'ma say this, on alot of the geman cars that i torque stuff down on, they have a torque value, then they say do a 90Degree.. Try reaching the torque value , then set your wrench to where you go do a 90 degree pull from say 3 oclock to 6oclock and see if the strech changes.
#5
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#6
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Thread Starter
Re: WTF overstretched rod bolts, help!!!
took the bolt out, applied some more lube and retorqued again at 45 so now it's;
1. 27
2. 45
3. 45 gave ,002" stretch
4. 51 gave ,0021"stretch
5. 45 gave ,002" stretch
i've gotten scared to apply more torque, don't want to ruin the next pair bolts.....
1. 27
2. 45
3. 45 gave ,002" stretch
4. 51 gave ,0021"stretch
5. 45 gave ,002" stretch
i've gotten scared to apply more torque, don't want to ruin the next pair bolts.....
#7
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: WTF overstretched rod bolts, help!!!
've gotten "bold"
retorqued at 55 and 60 ft/lbs, so now it's:
1. 27
2. 45
3. 45 gave ,002" stretch
4. 51 gave ,0021"stretch
5. 45 gave ,002" stretch
6. 55 gave ,0021" stretch
7. 60 gave ,0021" stretch
i'm flabbergasted, more torque ain't more stretch....... and i'm already at 60 ft/lbs on arp-lube in 7 times fastening and loosening.....
what's happening?????
retorqued at 55 and 60 ft/lbs, so now it's:
1. 27
2. 45
3. 45 gave ,002" stretch
4. 51 gave ,0021"stretch
5. 45 gave ,002" stretch
6. 55 gave ,0021" stretch
7. 60 gave ,0021" stretch
i'm flabbergasted, more torque ain't more stretch....... and i'm already at 60 ft/lbs on arp-lube in 7 times fastening and loosening.....
what's happening?????
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#8
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Thread Starter
Re: WTF overstretched rod bolts, help!!!
65 ft/lbs on arp-lube gave it ,00236".....
woot woot, torqueing it to the value you would on 30w oil with arp-lube and only ,00236", only ,00364" to go and i'm already overtorqueing it...
woot woot, torqueing it to the value you would on 30w oil with arp-lube and only ,00236", only ,00364" to go and i'm already overtorqueing it...
#9
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: WTF overstretched rod bolts, help!!!
I'ma say this.. maybe more steps inbetween?? Maybe add another one in there.
But i'ma say this, on alot of the geman cars that i torque stuff down on, they have a torque value, then they say do a 90Degree.. Try reaching the torque value , then set your wrench to where you go do a 90 degree pull from say 3 oclock to 6oclock and see if the strech changes.
But i'ma say this, on alot of the geman cars that i torque stuff down on, they have a torque value, then they say do a 90Degree.. Try reaching the torque value , then set your wrench to where you go do a 90 degree pull from say 3 oclock to 6oclock and see if the strech changes.
from 27ft/lbs (just closing the crush on the bearing) to 70ft/lbs is 45degrees....
clocking it 90 degrees from any torque value would severly stress the bolt
given the liniearity of the thread, the following should apply
1 x 45 degree = ,00283" stretch
1 x 90 degree = ,00566" stretch, wich is close to the required minimum of ,0058" tough
just scared the bolt won't return to it's normal state as torque is trough the roof.....
#10
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Thread Starter
Re: WTF overstretched rod bolts, help!!!
tried rod #3 in two steps without arp-lube (just the 30w the rods came with)
1. 27
2. 70
gotten ,00236" of stretch.....
keep getting flabbergasted
1. 27
2. 70
gotten ,00236" of stretch.....
keep getting flabbergasted
#12
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Re: WTF overstretched rod bolts, help!!!
ARP bolts are not the best. I got one bad one straight from manley I called them up and then next day'd me one for free. Secondly I had the same results, I had to torque and loosen each bolt about 4 times before I had the required amount of stretch that matched the amount of torque applied.
#13
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Thread Starter
Re: WTF overstretched rod bolts, help!!!
Read ARP'S application notes on burnishing. Every time you torque the assembly, you burnish or smooth the load bearing surfaces of the bolt and nut. This operation progressively reduces the required torque to achieve proper bolt stretch. I have found the required torque to become stable after four torque cycles. Each cycle includes torquing to specification and then loosening the assembly. I also obtained about 2.2 mils stretch on the first torque cycle..
Perform the burnishing operation on the bench in a soft-jawed vise. Then torque to specification and verify bolt stretch. Adjust torque if necessary to obtain the proper stretch (your torque wrench could be different). Then disassemble, install into engine assembly and torque to adjusted specification..
i'm not worried about overcycling, i'm worried about overstretching!
#14
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Thread Starter
Re: WTF overstretched rod bolts, help!!!
ARP bolts are not the best. I got one bad one straight from manley I called them up and then next day'd me one for free. Secondly I had the same results, I had to torque and loosen each bolt about 4 times before I had the required amount of stretch that matched the amount of torque applied.
i'm up to 9 times overtorqueing it and still not the required stretch achieved, damn ARP!!!!!!!!
the bolts i did not pay a whole lot of attention to total torque applied and just burnished them and stretched them by the book, i stretched them AAAARRRGGHHHHH!!!!
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