Info deleted.

I guess the members of Honda tech know more about valve seat corrosion than the metallurgists, chemists and engineers that designed, qualified, certified, and tested their own products.



Modified by b18bEKcoupe at 10:21 AM 6/21/2007

 

great info

 

We've been running methanol, which is MUCH more corrosive than E85, on stock valve seats for quite a while now, never seen a seat problem.

I don't think anyone who's using E85 on a honda is planning on going 100k on a motor. Anybody with a honda using E85 should be doing it for the octane rating and power, and those aren't the types that are going to put 100k on a motor.

I keep seeing all the warnings about not using E85 because it's corrosive, but i've yet to see any damage caused by it. I've been doing it on hondas for 7 months now, no problems yet.

 

from wat i read. methonal is the corrosive one. i haven't had any probs outa my dd with e85. my tuner thought he was tuning with C16 at first because of all the added timing he was able to add safely. it does require a bit more fuel but it is worth it. makes the car dive great around town from all the added timing. i wouldn't worry abt anything going bad. as long as you don't have a stock pump you should be good to go. just remember 1000CC injectors will net you abt 500 to the wheels with E85.

 

Comp/leak tested the motor and its good all the way across. Only got 1000 miles though, 99k to go

 

If you plan to get 150k out of your turbo honda motor then you might need to take a step back and look at things again. lol

 

To add some random thought to this, there is already a minimum of 10% ethanol in any gas at the pumps here and I am sure it is similar in many other places. So in what percentage fuel are you speculating a breakdown in the valve seats or rather is the company rep your talking to?

Cause we have been running ethanol in the gas for years like this in this part of the country. Btw who is the company that is said to be supplying honda's valve seats... just curious?

 

I will give it a shot as soon as we get one close to me, I will be sure to let you guys know if my seats fail, but who knows when we will actually get E85 within an hour from here

http://www.e85fuel.com/need_e85.php

 

I guess we are spoiled around here...currently listed... 66 stations listed for Missouri, 155 stations listed for Illinois, 72 in Iowa.

Sorry back on topic.

 

I tought E85 gas was used for Hybrid cars? Am i wrong? I know my truck is a hybrid truck and i can use E85 gas, to bad it isnt sold anywhere in GA. But i tought i was just made for those vehicles only!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by twkdCD595 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I guess we are spoiled around here...currently listed... 66 stations listed for Missouri, 155 stations listed for Illinois, 72 in Iowa.

Sorry back on topic.</TD></TR></TABLE>yeah IL is drunk on e85

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you plan to get 150k out of your turbo honda motor then you might need to take a step back and look at things again. lol</TD></TR></TABLE>

Come on, all SF motors last 150k don't they?

I know a couple guys who have been running e85 for over 2 years without any issues.

That is a good point... since 88 cars have bene required to be tolerant to up to 10% ehtanol, and in the winter we have up to 10% in pump gasoline at any given time here in CO... something to do with emissions

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b18bEKcoupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">10% most likely is not that destructive. This would be a slow failure until the point where the valves can no longer seal well. I doubt 10% would have much or any effect but i have no data to back that up.

I dont think i should name the supplier though.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, if 10% is ok, what about 15?
If 15 is ok, what about 20?
If 20 is ok, what about 25?
...

Where is the threshold? Its not going to be something like... 52.38987% is ok but 52.4 is not.... see what I mean? Honda seems to think that the seats are ok for up to 10%

 

the guy you were talking to sells valves seats.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bailhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the guy you were talking to sells valves seats.</TD></TR></TABLE>

good point


how much are those valve seats, cause when my DD b18b starts running like poo someday when i drive it on ethanol, illl know why and i can yank the head and have my shiny copper doo dads pressed in.

 

^ haha Very true....

I think the point the OP is making about E85 is different from what everyone else thinks... Everyone else is thinking He is talking about running E85 in turbo/high HP honda motors, but im pretty sure he is talking about using E85 because its cheaper and available to some people, not only to be used in High HP motors, hince the reason he said 155k miles..

 

if my Daily honda motor goes 155,000 miles before that **** starts happening, then i got my services worth.

 

That guy was trying to make a sale.

Corrosion isn't always a bad thing. Let looks at aluminum for example. Aluminum corrodes REALLY REALLY easily, just by bing exposed to air. But this turns aluminum into aluminum oxide. So what actually happens is on almost all aluminum on the outside is a very very thin layer of aluminum oxide. The layer is so thin you can see through it.

The layer of aluminum oxide protects the aluminum and keeps it from further corrosion. This is why "aluminum doesn't rust". Technically it does, very easily, just not with the same properties as iron.

I can tell you one thing, if they don't know between 50k and 150k miles, they don't know ****.

If something is going to corrode and weaken, it's going to happen A LOT faster than 50k miles.

 

Keep in mind that unless you're running your car on something like, ohh, I don't know... hydrochloric acid... corrosion is not instantaneous. The parts in your engine were extensively tested, yes, and so long as they are operated within a tolerable range of conditions... then they should work properly for the length of their intended service life.

The amount of wear to the engine's parts (seals, guides, o-rings, etc.) because of running E85 is so minute compared to how much extra stress is put on an N/A motor that is now running forced induction that it basically becomes not worth talking about.

Tony, AMS Eric, the Titan team, Hoa and everyone else that's tuned lots of E85 cars will tell you time and time again that the rate of corrosion is hardly worth mentioning based on how long these cars have been running E85 on stock fuel systems.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b18bEKcoupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This has nothing to do with wear or load. This is about corrosion</TD></TR></TABLE>

So corrosion isn't wear? Isn't the definition of wear in this context as such?: "to impair, deteriorate, or consume gradually by use or any continued process"

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b18bEKcoupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">These are the same seats that were designed 20 years ago. They were extensively tested.....for regular gasoline.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Regular gasoline contains ethanol, no?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b18bEKcoupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The corrosion is instantaneous. It just happens very slowly.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Aren't 'instantaneous' and 'slow' antonyms?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b18bEKcoupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">These are the same seats that were designed 20 years ago. They were extensively tested.....for regular gasoline. </TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b18bEKcoupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I can guarantee you that any car that Honda sells that is E85 compatible will not be using these seats.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Man, I really hope not. Who uses stuff in modern engines that was designed 20 years ago?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Axle &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

So corrosion isn't wear? Isn't the definition of wear in this context as such?: "to impair, deteriorate, or consume gradually by use or any continued process"</TD></TR></TABLE>

No. Corrosion is not wear. When speaking of wear to a metallurgist or materials engineer wear is generally referred to as a loss or deformation of material. Most of the time wear occurs when a part is contacting another part and through friction or some other means material is deformed or removed. Corrosion may cause a loss of material but this it for a totally different reason.

I dont know if ive ever heard someone say that their exhaust was worn because it was rusty.

Piston rings wear. Brake pads wear. Body panels corrode. Bolts corrode.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Axle &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Regular gasoline contains ethanol, no?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Exactly. Regular gasoline (20 years ago as clearly stated) contained NO ETHANOL.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Axle &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Aren't 'instantaneous' and 'slow' antonyms?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Again. You are totally WRONG. The speed with which the corrosion occurs has nothing to do weather or not it starts to occur instantly.

Your soda starts to loose fizz INSTANTLY but it happens SLOWLY.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Axle &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Man, I really hope not. Who uses stuff in modern engines that was designed 20 years ago?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Are you kidding? Why does Chevy still sell their small block? How many years was the b series engine in production? EVERYONE in the auto industry....even Porsche... uses things that were designed previously. A car would cost so much more if every single part has to be the latest and greatest most modern. And any vehicle Honda makes that is designed for E85 will use a different type of seat that, guess what, is designed to be used with E85.

Pretty much everything you said i your last post was just totally wrong.


Modified by b18bEKcoupe at 3:10 AM 6/22/2007

 

I have been running it for about 4 years now and it has been fine in my B16

Meth is the on that is bad and any motor built after 87-88 has to be able to stand min 10% so i really don't think the ethanol is going to be a issue.

I have put about 30k on the e85 i don't make the power that alot of people make but i have not gone back and upped the boost because of the clutch in the car. When i made the power 280 whp that was alot on a stock b16 now people do that on pump gas.

Man has times changed.

 

OK, so you're looking at one definition of wear as you'd like to see it. That's cool with me, I misunderstood what you were trying to get across. The dictionary definition for wear (as quoted above) says "impair, deteriorate or consume gradually." I didn't write that, that's how it is in the dictionary. If you have a problem with the interpretation of wear, write the dictionary people a letter. Doesn't corrosion happen gradually? I believe so. Corrosion is one form of deterioration, no?

Wear is wear, regardless of cause or contact. Maybe you don't like the word wear, OK... let's call it deterioration. The point we attempted to get across to you is that wear/deformation/corrosion/whatever else you'd like to refer to it as that is experienced by other parts is of far greater concern to engine longevity that what E85 does to valve seats. No one is saying that ethanol content in E85 has no influence on longevity, but it definitely does not affect valve seats to the extent that you're making it seem.

Thank you for the clariifcation.

Yes, that's called sarcasm.

I don't know. I don't work for Honda. What I do know is those that have worked with cars running E85 that did not originally run E85 have not seen or heard of any problems with the valve seats.

...and everything you said in every post in this thread seems to be with an agenda to sell us on buying new valve seats because E85 will corrode the seats at such a rate that we must change valve seats right away.

Experience always supercedes theory. Always. Experience tells us that E85 has not worn valve seals at such a rate that it has become a major concern for engine builders everywhere. Furthermore, you're in the forced induction forum on Honda-Tech. How many turbo Hondas on this forum came turbocharged from the factory? Approximately 0. No, wait, make that exactly 0. How many of them run E85? More than 0. How many of them lost valve seats due to E85 use? 0. Look at the poster above this post... E85 for four years, NEVER an issue with it.

I will give you this much. OEM applications in which parts are designed to far outlast the million cycle threshold could have been redesigned/retooled to have more durable components to withstand the effects of E85. I don't work for an OEM, so I don't know. However, this is the FI forum on Honda-Tech and as was said... if you expect your **** to last a 100k miles, maybe it's time to write yourself a reality check.

 

I have given up on this thread. My original intention was to provide information that may prove valuable to some members.

I was never pushing the sale of any valve seat. As a matter of fact, there is currently no such seat available. I have nothing to do with this company other than being a customer. I thought that by relaying this information it would be a service to the members of this forum.

I guess I learned that many people on here will argue just because they don't like the truth.

Just let this thread die.

Lesson leaned.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b18bEKcoupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have given up on this thread. My original intention was to provide information that may prove valuable to some members.

I was never pushing the sale of any valve seat. As a matter of fact, there is currently no such seat available. I have nothing to do with this company other than being a customer. I thought that by relaying this information it would be a service to the members of this forum.

I guess I learned that many people on here will argue just because they don't like the truth.

Just let this thread die.

Lesson leaned.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well what do you expect. Dont misunderstand, I think people appreciate the discussion of topics like this (I know I do), but it is hard to make a statement like you have here and expect no retort from those who may disagree or question the information presented. Dont take offense but maybe consider adding more to this than a second hand recount of some un-named manufacturer's statements said to be tested fact.

Most people on here and in other forums like seeing tangible goods before accepting it. From that perspective, what we do have right now is quite a few individuals, tuners, etc. have yet to have a problem. Until they do or we get some empirical information, utilizing some kind of scientific method, real world testing, data from a recognized source, etc... something tangible... its going to generally be a very contraversial topic.

Dont take this the wrong way, its just a discussion... health discussions are good for the foum imo and better than more ssautochrome/ ebay vendors/ how much hp threads of recent.

Ethanol is a hot topic right now being heavily debated on almost all the forums I have been on, from ls1 boards to here and everything in between. It is become so popular recently with increased availability and yet is still relatively new to the majority of us... thus there is alot of contraversy about a big majority of the information available.

edit: Regardless of whats right, wrong, or anything like that (cause I personally dont know for sure)... to you for sparking debate about something interesting to be evaluated when running E85.


Modified by twkdCD595 at 1:08 PM 6/21/2007