DSF

Not having a lot of friends with turbo vehicles (total count = 0), my personal experience is limited to what I build on my own. Which is why I'm asking such a general question here. My new ride is in the initial build phases and I have some design decisions to make. The car is a 95 Integra Sedan weighing in the neighborhood of 2700-2800lbs. My question is a vague one. I'm trying to decide on an engine build that will have greater peak torque at lower rpms (straight LS) or one with greater horsepower and a flatter, but lower torque curve at higher rpms (LSVT). The car will be about 80-85% street driven, the rest of the time spent 1/4 mile racing (looking for high 11s). I guess what I'm asking is which setup will be more <U>enjoyable and tolerable</U> on the street with the Integra's weight?

Please, no cliche statments like "VTECH ownz" I'm looking for some general personal experiences.

Thanks.

Joseph Davis

With a weighty ride, a diet is better. Or just drop the heavy **** and get a thinner whip.

BTW, hp is a mathematical function of torque, and therefore your question is pointless. Look a little deeper.

donkiman

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BTW, hp is a mathematical function of torque, and therefore your question is pointless. Look a little deeper.</TD></TR></TABLE>

DSF

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">With a weighty ride, a diet is better. Or just drop the heavy **** and get a thinner whip.

BTW, hp is a mathematical function of torque, and therefore your question is pointless. Look a little deeper.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Pointless...no. I understand the logic behind your statements, which is why I was asking for personal experiences. The choice of car was my personal decision and the weight compramise is something I'm willing to live with at this point in my life. I've previously owned a 92 CX and an 88 CRX DX, so I understand the effects power-weight ratio. And the hard mathmatics are of little interest to me (not that they aren't important ) which is why I didn't go into details. Dyno plots don't always tell the whole story. I'm just curious about generalities between the different powerbands. I'm not looking for internet bragging rights with this project. Just something that is 1st enjoyable to drive and 2ndperforms well. In the past, those two have been reveresed with the enoyable to drive taking large hits in the face to gain performance.

honda_joe

"Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races"

Joseph Davis

That's a layman's conceptual limitation, honda_joe. Very high horsepower readings are also indicative of where torque does the most work.

DSF, your question is moot given the nature of this forum; boost produces torque. You'll have a good powerband either route, and if your bottom end with the LS/VTEC + laggy turbo is a bit soggy - downshift.

As for choosing between LS and LS/VTEC, that's up to you. LS starts becoming knock limited by pump gas around 350 whp, you can get 100 whp more out of a VTEC configuration due to VE, higher rpms, etc. You won't have much traction with either setup on the street, so if you don't mind a little racegas when you're on slicks and running higher boost...

Boostage

Im sure if u have a built motor, wether LS or lsvtec and a big enough turbo. weight will never be a problem. u will just need more power than a lighter car to break traction. the more boost you run the more tq and hp you will make and you will find that its your suspension and tires are the limits of your setup. not the engine or weight of the car.

Drew Peacock

Thats something to consider with all that weight pulling back on the front wheels traction is going to impaired to say the least.

DSF

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As for choosing between LS and LS/VTEC, that's up to you. </TD></TR></TABLE>

This is what deep down I'm trying to decide and I guess I'm wording my question wrong. Maybe I should break it down into seperate questions...

1 - technical) Are the way torque comes in and the mass of a vehicle interrelated? Meaning will an early torque peak accelerate the heavier car more efficiently or will the lower more sustained torque win out?

2 - subjective) Which curve will feel better in street trim while street driving (ok, aggressive street driving )?

I guess the best analogy/example of my questions I can give is the stock comparison between an Integra with either a B18B (torquey, but powerless) or a B16A (powerfull, but torquless). My guess is the B18B would feel better on the street, but will the B16A do better at the track?

I always hated the feeling of having to flog my B16 hatch to feel fast. The <U>need</U> to downshift annoyed me. At the same time, my T25'd Y7 CRX felt like it had a big block due to the early torque peak, but just felt like it ran out of steam after 5krpm which was annoying too.

DIRep972

iTrader: (1)

listen to J. Davis, he knows the deal.

A car making low torque w/ alot of hp tells you its doing it at high rpm's. A car running high rpm's should be running lower, numerically higher gears. lower gears put more torque to the ground. So either way you are getting torque.

Go w/ the engine that makes the most power and gear it properly.

DSF

I understand the physics of torque and horsepower. What I'm trying to get is not theory and math, but opinion and experience. A boosted B18C with B16A crank (B16B) has huge rev potential, therefore huge horespower potential and could be a great performer. However, on the street it could get annoying having to keep the rpms up. But on the other end we all know how efficient domestic V8s typically are.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to sort things out in my mixed up head. I'm trying to get some opinions to see if I'll be happier with less power, but having to rev less. Or to get the power to staisfy me, will I require more revs to operate more efficiently. People who have experience with both setups are ideally who I would like to hear from. Comparisons and contrasts.

Other than my fellow H-Ters, I have no other input. Just about everyone else I know in the real world has...dare I say it...stock vehicles.

beepy

That is assuming you can choose whatever gears you want.

No matter what, the vast majority of the work done by the engine is done in the low-to-mid RPMs. An engine might make 800 hp as a peak, but if it has no torque in the midband and doesn't make power until after 8000 RPM it is pretty worthless.

THE ONE

I would just stick with the LS turbo. It will be less of a headache, and with turbo no matter what motor, you will have a nice powerband from mid-top and still get off the line quick. But your talking about running high 11's and your going to be on the street 85% of the time? Unless you REALLY have the motor built it won't be reliable or be able to be driven on the street all the time.

electronb16si

Put a JRSC on either motor and it will be a fun car to drive on the street and will have all the torque you need as soon as you mash the gas. The only problem is you won't see 11's with one unless you have some extensive mods.

Personally i'd go with the straight LS turbo. It will not give as many problems down the road. Just give it 7-8lbs and it will be plenty powerful, and torquey enough to pull you around the streets at a pretty good pace, overweight or not.

DIRep972

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DSF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I understand the physics of torque and horsepower. What I'm trying to get is not theory and math, but opinion and experience. A boosted B18C with B16A crank (B16B) has huge rev potential, therefore huge horespower potential and could be a great performer. However, on the street it could get annoying having to keep the rpms up. But on the other end we all know how efficient domestic V8s typically are.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to sort things out in my mixed up head. I'm trying to get some opinions to see if I'll be happier with less power, but having to rev less. Or to get the power to staisfy me, will I require more revs to operate more efficiently. People who have experience with both setups are ideally who I would like to hear from. Comparisons and contrasts.

Other than my fellow H-Ters, I have no other input. Just about everyone else I know in the real world has...dare I say it...stock vehicles. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Well I guess I have a bit of experience with both types of set ups. From a complete drivers/passengers point of view w/ out any math or theory, i would take the LS any day of the week over the B16. For the same peak horsepower the LS will run way harder. People complain about it dieing off in the top end but thats just cause it makes alot of area under the curve. The low compression is nice, it keeps it alot safer on the street. Boosted LS motors have a much better survival ratio then B16's and that is mainly due to the compression. Now the problem with the LS is there is not a whole lotta potential for big HP. You can turn up the boost just the same as any other engine but you don't get the same gains. The GSR engine you get your cake and u get to eat it too. You get decent area under the curve and you get real decent top end and you have the ability to run some low gearing and really the combination working right. I wonder if anyone has my old videos of Arturbo and I racing. Identical set ups practically, except I had an LS motor and he had a GSR. Revhard kit 3" exhaust @ 8psi on FMU. On the punch id hold pretty decent, but when i had to shift he would just keep pulling and in each gear above that it would get worse. From a stop I could hang much better w/ turbo gsr's. from a dig they didnt really have nothin on me until 80mph or so. When people say torque gets you in front HP keeps you there, as much as that statement is wrong it is pretty true from the drivers point of view. But it should really be rephrased as area under the curve gets you out in front and peak power keeps you there. I dunno if thats what your lookin to hear but maybe it will help.

-iLLuZioN-B18C1

i have those vids
dont know how to host though.

Chris F

Hey DSF,

If you have a motor that's strong, and in one piece, just boost it.

Any turbo B-series motor is going to have enough torque for a FWD honda. While you light up the tires in 2nd gear, you'll notice that any more/less torque wouldn't really matter that much.

Low-end torque also depends on turbo size and when it spools, probably even more than motor selection.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DSF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Please, no cliche statments like "VTECH ownz" </TD></TR></TABLE>

j00 need dat mad 3rd gear VTEK pull it pwns j00!

-Chris

DSF

Yeah, I guess I'm just getting nit-picky at this point. While the car is being assembled, I've got nothing to do but overthink


Exactly what I was looking for I'm starting to realize in my growing years that I would rather have a street car that I can race occasionally as opposed to a race care that can be street driven.

See, I'm in the proverbial "use was you got" finacial battle, but I also want what I want. Meaning I will do what it takes to satisfy my power needs...short of going out and buying yet another engine that is. (I wish I had a spare B18C as that would most likely be my best compramise.) I currently have a GE sleeved B18B shortblock, Eagle rods, Wiseco pistons, AEM EMS, JG/E manifold, T3/60-1, GS-R trans +more that have been awaiting a car for quite some time worthy to hold them. Now I have the car (that was a compramise in itself), but my original "max horsepower" internet goal has evolved over the time I've been buying parts. I have both B18B and B16A heads I could use as well and I don't mind getting a different turbo/manifold to fit my needs. In my heart I think I would be happier in a daily driver, practical way with the characteristics of a boosted B18B, compared to a LSVT. I just have this bug in my brain that hates knowingly using a less efficient head limiting potential and possibly requiring race fuel to get the results I want when I do go to the track.

LOL

22psicrx

just boost the ls, that should be fun

DIRep972

iTrader: (1)

If you have a Vtec head id run the vtec head on the LSblock. That right there u get ur cake and eat it too. W/ LSvtec's you actually get better spool and low end grunt then u do w/ just an LS head because of the vtec's low cam.

boosted92

Stock sleeve 81.5MM GSR with a GT35R here. I have my cake, and I eat it too. Wicked spool, and a whole shitload of top end. It's in my teg sedan too. Still has leather, P/S, A/C, a nice system, some heavy *** 17's, the whole works.

danl

I like a lot of torque around 3500rpm's. For a street car that is just right below normal cruising rpm's. If someone comes up on you or you just need to jump from 70-100mph in a blink of an eye while still in 5th gear, you just give it a little throttle and your their. When going from a stop you have to show your patience. With a lot of available torque on tap frying the tires is extremly easy.

High rpm "HP" motors are good for 100mph roll ons when brake boosting. I know of a lot of these high HP motors that turn dissapointing times at the strip. HP isn't everything its only one of the things...........

Tushner

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">With a weighty ride, a diet is better. Or just drop the heavy **** and get a thinner whip.

BTW, hp is a mathematical function of torque, and therefore your question is pointless. Look a little deeper.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Bwahahahahaha...

I love these posts.

shermanyang

iTrader: (1)

hope these dyno graphs can help ya out. the first one is from my first setup that's now gone(stolen). it was fun to drive but top end wasn't all that great. low end was okay, midrange was insane and top end you could kinda feel it dying down somewhat. peels out right when the turbo hits around 3.5k-5k and grips right after that.

the second graph is my current LS setup. low end is great for everyday driving, hardly any lag and feels like a regular LS motor with a little more power. mid range was also nice but not as torquey as the first, put top end pulls like a ****. 6k up on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd just peels out. this motor/setup feels a lot faster than the first setup. it could be due to the displacement of torque? it has a lower peak torque but it has a more useful powerband all together. this powerband is similar to that of an LS/VTEC motor(weird that i've got one considering i don't have vtec).

DIRep972

iTrader: (1)

wow thats seriously one of the best lookin powercurves ive ever seen. Nice slow angle down from the torque peak, i bet that thing will accelerate into the 8k's. Are you running a skunk2 intake manifold?