whoneedzvtec

hey guys, anybody out there that has some good expirience with this stuff? i am really looking into one of these kits because they seem like a pretty good investment! anyhow i was doing some searching and i had no idea that there is this many companys to choose from. just wondering if u guys can vouch for any of these companys out there. and what r the pros and cons of one of these systems. thanks fellas.

boost fed ls

I installed a water injection kit on my car a few months back. I am sure it help me with timing but when I cut power to the pump on the dyno I made 10ft/tq more than when I was running it. I does do wonders for timing.

alpha

I will be running Cooling Mist's meth injection kit with a 90/10 mix on my personal car here soon. I know xsi-t will be running it on his fully built GSR and jsimon9633 will be running one on his fully built K20. For the money I think it's a great alternative to race gas on a street application. Before anyone else says it sure there is an inherent risk of the pump failing thus causing your motor to possibly fail. I will be setting it up with my engine management to make sure this does not happen. Good luck.

orion840

i saw a guy at the track running in a boosted 89 prelude with methanol injection with no intercooler and he said that was the only thing he could do to keep detition from happening with high boost but i ran into him the other day at the shop and he was having an intercooler put on and turning the boost up so i guess it works good for him
the kit he got was a universal one that he just made fit

boosted92

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boost fed ls &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I installed a water injection kit on my car a few months back. I am sure it help me with timing but when I cut power to the pump on the dyno I made 10ft/tq more than when I was running it. I does do wonders for timing.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's because you're injecting water, not meth. Water displaces air and fuel in the cylinders and knocks down power if you don't add any timing/boost. Methanol replaces fuel and will add power all on it's own with no other changes. Spraying 100% meth is the only way to fly, if your pump can handle it.

Joseph Davis

I like the snowperformance.net kits, especially for MAF equipped vehicles.

I have one of Dan ay myo-p.com's sequential water injector setups to poke around with. It's slaved off the fuel injector pulse (and then you can modify what the controller does with that pulse) so you can keep water proportional to fuel.

Water has four times the cooling ability of methanol. 100% methanol disinterests me - just dilute the water enough to cut surface tension so it sprays, thanks. Or some other diluent entirely.

As for the 10 ft/lbs lost - who cares? That hp per psi bullshit doesn't interest me. With the water injection, you pick up a good bump to you knock limit, which manifests itself as increased engine reliability or - optionally - more boost. We now have a situation where we can introduce some *real* air mass, with equivalent reliability of a lower "psi" boost that makes less power.

For the casual water injection user, 50% water to fuel ratios, the cylinder head and pistons are significantly reduced in temperatures. For weak aluminum, which is half as strong at 600 deg F as it is at room temperature, this is significant. Expect gains of 10-15% to knock limit. The only catch is at these levels, your exhaust valves bear as much thermal load as a non-water injected setup at the same power levels. There is a direct correlation to EGT/exhaust valve temps and engine lifespan - ask Sir Harry Ricardo.

For 75, 100, 150% water to fuel ratios you end up with an interesting situation. Exhaust valve thermal load drops off. Depending on power level and engine design particulars, your cooling jacket stops being used entirely. Engine temperatures drop to below 200 deg F - great for knock limit BUT! Excess water that makes it past the rings does not evaporate out of your crankcase + oil as in a conventional setup where engine oil operates above the boiling point of water. Sludge forms in the oil pan. Let's not hear any noise about this being from the water injection and being detrimental - excess water always makes it past the rings, it is a main product of the combustion reaction, weighing in at 2 lbs water for every lb gasoline burned. Test engines have been proven to suffer no damage from massive water injection, as long as great care is taken to heat cycle the engine to evaporate excess water.

As far as water displacing air/fuel... *yawn*. For the casual user, mentioned above, you are in the 10:1 air-fluid range which is not out of the range of factory turbo vehicles - most run far richer than that. Given obvious raise in total power ability, it's a nonsense argument.

You do realize all the literature I interleave with personal experiments is freely available on the web... and is mostly 1920's technology? Which is about right... the automotive aftermarket theory and technology is stuck in the 1910's. Aside from Mister Fuel Injector and Mister ECU doing a precise job of controlling things...

boosted92

Technical stuff is all good and fine, but Julio says 100% meth makes the most power, and with how much experience he has with this stuff I'll take his word over yours. He owns AlkyControl.com and has been involved with Alcohol and Water injection for a long time, and was one of the people that started it's rebirth in the past several years.

Pulled from This Thread

The "theyre info is wrong" part is referring to a statement on Aquamist's website that a 50/50 mix of alcohol/water is the best choice.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by razor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Theyre info is wrong

Reason to not use straight alcohol with the aquamist setup is that it will kill their pump.

Design to blow straight alcohol, run mix and compare knock readings vs running straight. Every platform tested using a knock sensor has responded better with straight alcohol when the real squeeze has been done.

If the car runs 15 PSI cleanly.. all you want is 17 PSI.. straight water/mix will quench the detonation. The deal I get into is run 15 PSI cleanly and want to run 25 PSI cleanly.. thats when you get into 30-40% fuel replacement and get the job done. Some cars run upwards of 40-50% replacement and get away with murder on 93 octane.

Jerry's car here in Tampa runs 35 PSI on 93 octane. 1997 Mirage, 2700 lbs + driver, full interior car, on kumo 18 inch street radials, 1.8 60 foot, ran 6.60 @108 1/8 and a 10.4 at 132 off the rev limiter. His car with the aquamist setup fastest it ever went was an 11.3. Switching from mix to straight.. it immediately dropped him to 10.8. Bigger turbo, more boost + AEM.. 10.4's..

Leave ya with this, ECS shot straight alcohol through a MAF back in Sept last year.. kinda barbaric.. car picked up 15 HP 25 TQ zero changes. Doug has easy over 800+ Dyno pulls on an injection kit.. as you saw the link above.. proof is in the pudding. With any water/mix system, there is no power gain on a non detonating tuned engine unless something else is changed. Like timing or boost. With alcohol.. the forced induction car runs like winter in the summer.

As much as I've messed with mixes.. no way the same power can be had running straight VP M1 methanol.

So I have Buicks, DSM's, Vette's, Supra's.. run on stock computers, AEM's, FAST, BS3.. all with zero issues running straight methanol.

I even did 3 weeks ago a 572 BBC with a pair of 67's detuned to run 1500 HP on pump gas + alky.. at 25 PSI.

I see the mix topic come up everytime a Mustang owner wants a kit Its ok... either i'm a loon or i'm onto somethen :D
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Joseph Davis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boosted92 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Technical stuff is all good and fine, but Julio says 100% meth makes the most power, and with how much experience he has with this stuff I'll take his word over yours. He owns AlkyControl.com and has been involved with Alcohol and Water injection for a long time, and was one of the people that started it's rebirth in the past several years.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's nice.

I was going by what Sir Harry Ricardo had to say in the matter... he had a lot more experience than Julio will ever gather in his life. You can call Ricardo Consulting Engineers and make inquiries if you don't believe me. He may be dead, but his company is still very much a viable concern when it comes to doing the R&D that goes into the modern automobile.

BTW... I'm sure Julio means power per psi... which means nothing.

boosted92

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

That's nice.

I was going by what Sir Harry Ricardo had to say in the matter... he had a lot more experience than Julio will ever gather in his life. You can call Ricardo Consulting Engineers and make inquiries if you don't believe me. He may be dead, but his company is still very much a viable concern when it comes to doing the R&D that goes into the modern automobile.

BTW... I'm sure Julio means power per psi... which means nothing. </TD></TR></TABLE>

And the last time Ricardo Consulting Engineers produced and tuned an alcohol injection kit designed to make as much power as possible on a pump gas automobile engine was when? I doubt they've done much, if anything, on alcohol/water injection in the past dozen years, and what they do for high altitute aircraft engines doesn't directly translate what works for cars.

Julio is talking about pump gas power period. He told me there is a certain point with water injection where you can't add any more fluid and the motor is starting to knock. Not true with methanol, if you have detonation you pull out some gasoline, add more meth, and you will eventually stop knock.

Joseph Davis

Ricardo dealt with more than aviation engines, and at the end of the day a piston engine is a piston engine is. While particular design changes certain characteristics to suit desired application, general trends still hold true. For higher ratio water injection, you pull out fuel as well. Excess fuel is used as thermal management, which with the water is no longer needed.

I'm not arguing the benefits of alcohol - it is very knock resistant, and has more "coolant" that gasoline; you inject twice as much of it as you do gasoline to maintain stochiochemic, and within the first few rxns converts to water where gasoline produces water later in the rxn. So - why not just run straight alcohol? Saves a lot of fiddle-farting around with expensive not-found-on-the-shelf 99.7% methanol as a mere additive.


Julio's erroneous findings as to the validity of water injection has to do with improper control. You can ramp up line pressure to spray across a fixed nozzle by PWM control of a motor if everything is done proportionally to MAF input - that way you are keeping water proportional to airmass, just like the ECU is doing for the fuel. In a Speed Density based system, to maintain correct water delivery per airmass, you need to inject the water *at a certain psi* *at a certain rpm* *modified by volumetric efficiency of that particular engine at that particular point*. Johnny Bighammering the water feed based on manifold pressure completely divorced of varying system efficiency... yeah, I'm not surprised Julio has a problem here. Efficiency takes a dive and you smother the burn with too much water... efficiency goes way up, and chamber temps climb to the point water decomposes to component oxygen and hydrogen... which at those temps seek out aluminum and steel to join with. Ever seen a set of melted, slagged pistons? Just like a cutting torch - high speed oxidation.


Like I said in the first to blurbs of my first post:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Joey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I like the snowperformance.net kits, especially for MAF equipped vehicles.

I have one of Dan ay myo-p.com's sequential water injector setups to poke around with. It's slaved off the fuel injector pulse (and then you can modify what the controller does with that pulse) so you can keep water proportional to fuel.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The sequential injection setup is for SD... sorry I didn't state it outright, I thought the concept of the need for precise engine control systems was firmly drilled into the head of everybody playing in HT's much-vaunted Farced Induction Forum.

By the way, I'm a little tired of playing Julio Says. You obviously like the guy, he's probably a great guy, and for missing a few salient facts about basic engine operation and theory, he's apparently done pretty well for himself. That's nice. You're at best equipped with a lesser grasp of what Julio knows and does - which I hope I have already explained to everyone's satisfaction as being flawed - so you can either continue to talk about what another man says, bring something of your own to the table, or keep working at it. Like the rest of us do when we aren't the man, but would like to be. I'm going to finish epoxying my garage floor now.

Bailhatch

hey, that's cool you are not dead J Davis.

We use lots of the snowperformance kits on STis and the like. 50/50 mix and 93 octane = reliable, fast cars and happy custys.

Pilot

Water methanol injection works very well. This summer our team tuned a 69 Camaro street car using the FJO electronic water methanol injection system and it ran 7.81 at 183 on 91 octane pump. In fact, on some days in July the charge pipes got cold enough to condense on the outside under full boost on the dyno.
Kits vary in their quality (duh, just like everything else) though and going with the low bidder here would not be wise. If the only thing between your engine and massive detonation induced failure is the water meth system then get a quailty system. A google search for "water methanol injection" should get you some good links.

Pilot

Tony the Tiger

I am always going to agree with J.Davis. His explanations always coincide with my own experiences regarding water or alcohol injection.

Straight methanol is great, but you will be trying to replace the actual amount of gasoline going into the engine because methanol combusts as well. The more you spray on top of gasoline, the richer it gets. I would have no clue on how to tune an aggressive 100% methanol injection setup because both fuels require completely different air/fuel or air/meth ratios.

I have my WI system set to activate when the engine needs it the most -- near torque peak and peak boost. If you are not overly exceeding the limits of pump gas or on the edge of destructive EGT's, all the partial load ranges shouldn't require WI. It is under maximum engine load/power which the engine tends to detonate, so choose a nice spot for the water injection to activate to prevent any dips in power if you have a DIY cheapo system like I do

boost fed ls

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boosted92 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

That's because you're injecting water, not meth. Water displaces air and fuel in the cylinders and knocks down power if you don't add any timing/boost. Methanol replaces fuel and will add power all on it's own with no other changes. Spraying 100% meth is the only way to fly, if your pump can handle it.</TD></TR></TABLE>


not sure how spraying meth can add power by its self with out the aid of more timing or boost??

morepoop4u

iTrader: (1)

Worked fine on my jrsc setup using a 50/50 mix alky/water. Shameless plug , my WI is for sale in my sig.

Joseph Davis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Pilot &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> In fact, on some days in July the charge pipes got cold enough to condense on the outside under full boost on the dyno. </TD></TR></TABLE>

That's a logical red herring.

Water/diluent injection does zip zilch nada to cool the intake charge. MAF logs agree, there is no extra airmass ingested when using water/diluent injection. If it cooled the charge, then you would pick up more power per psi...

What the droplets you inject into your intake tract do is cling to solid surfaces and draw heat out of them - there is a lot more mass to a piece of charge piping or an intake than to thin charge air, so you actually have an honest to goodness thermal junction here. Or your cylinder head, and engine internals. Condensation - or the incompetent JDogg's frost - on your charge pipes does not indicate cooling. It indicates drawing more heat into the engine because you picked a **** poor place to inject your water/diluent when you should be direct or port injecting (ideally). I'd rather let what heat the charge piping holds radiate away as best as possible than suck it back into the engine and decrease knock limit - would you?

Bailhatch

blah blah blah, fact is that your are NOT dead.

Joseph Davis

I love you.

Garage is painted. Just ran the 220 for the TIG. Think I should buy a lathe to stick in the corner? I can get a Southbend 9X22" for a good deal.

old no.7

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Pilot &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Water methanol injection works very well. This summer our team tuned a 69 Camaro street car using the FJO electronic water methanol injection system and it ran 7.81 at 183 on 91 octane pump. In fact, on some days in July the charge pipes got cold enough to condense on the outside under full boost on the dyno.
Kits vary in their quality (duh, just like everything else) though and going with the low bidder here would not be wise. If the only thing between your engine and massive detonation induced failure is the water meth system then get a quailty system. A google search for "water methanol injection" should get you some good links.

Pilot</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hey Ross, its a 67 not a 69 The FJO water/meth system works awesome as evident by the times of the car, [7's on pump gas, anyone else ever done this?], very hightech and reliable system Definetely not 1910 technology as someone suggested. I would recommend checking out FJO if you are in the market for a water/meth kit.


Modified by old no.7 at 12:47 PM 11/20/2005

Joseph Davis

Water injection, and precise control of, is not 1910 era technology?

I very much do not stand corrected...