C_Rock77

Has anyone had any experience with a Water/Meth kit on an LHT Intercooled JRSC? Would it be something worthwhile to look into if you're looking at possibly running 14+ lbs? This setup will be run on and tuned on 93 octane, and I was mostly curious if running it would allow someone to run some higher boost numbers.

I also don't know where the limit of pump gas is on a 1.8L B-Series engine (Power Wise). I thought it would be an interesting discussion to have. It might've been discussed in the "JRSC Setup" thread. Let's face it, noone reads that whole thing!

lyncoors

it would work wonders on a roots type supercharger.

I CRX I

i was in an efi class with a guy who stated he had done some of the initial testing for the lht inter-cooler with water meth injection and from what he said, the water didnt seem to benefit the IAT's and IIRC it actually dropped the HP numbers. i believe he said it may have been due to the water in those kits combined with the water running through the LHT seemed to drown the motor a bit. i personally see nitrous benefiting more then the water meth as it does wonders for the iats as well as serving as an oxidizer and due to the placement of the SC, theres no worry of uneven distribution as with a normal intake systems. it also takes a fairly small shot to produce some great numbers. just my .02

C_Rock77

Yeah, I'd heard that concerning WATER injection...but was under the impression those tests were just with water -- no Methanol.

I know a guy that has a Cobalt SS with the Eaton M62 (they have heat exchangers, etc) that runs Water/Meth injection and he claims that it makes a huge difference.

I've heard differing opinions on here.

I know not many people have pushed the JRSC to 14 lbs. I know Roger had a build that was severely knock limited before it ever saw it's full potential. I'm really wondering if anyone has any 1st hand experience with something like this.

N2O would be great, too. I've considered it. However, I really think we're going to be at the practical limit of pump gas, anyway. A shot on top of what I'm thinking about doing might just be too much for 93 octane.

Let me know if I'm wrong

I CRX I

i have a friend of mine that will be using a water/meth kit on his JRSC'd ITR with no lht so i'll see what he thinks about it and post up the results but here a few more things ive considered on the subject. when running the M62 provided with our JRSC kits at 14psi you'll be pushing the limits of the M62 as it will be over spinning the rotors. it would be beneficial to place any additives as the ones discussed pre throttle body to help cool down not only the intake charge but also the manifold and rotors as supposed to behind the manifold only effectively cooling the air coming out of the SC. with that said, could there be a limit of how much water/meth could be injected through the SC before it becomes to much? the only thing im considering is the density of the water/meth as compared to nitrous which, if im not mistaken, is a gas (unless its a wet shot of course)? ive also heard of issues with some W/M kits leaking through the nozzles even when the system is off so placing it post TB may present an issue. another thing to consider would be tuning and the possibility of kit failure. what i mean by this is, if your vehicle was tuned at a certain amount of timing while on the W/M kit i.e. having the solenoid activate at a certain psi or temp. to combat any knock, if for any reason the kit fails and does not engage, your left with a ticking time bomb. nitrous on the other hand usually just takes more fuel added and ignition retarded when engaged, if the solenoid fails, your just left with a motor running very rich and slow...again, these are just a few assumptions ive made considering what ive heard and by no means is personal experience. if anyone has any personal experience please chime in.

wunfstgsr

http://www.ftlracing.com/tech/honda/JRSC.html

lyncoors

thats the total opposite.

Jaker

Here's how I'm setting up my AEM water/meth kit on my M62 Endyn supercharged D series setup:

AEM injection nozzle plumbed in between the TB and the supercharger inlet (The Endyn kit has a long 14"+ feed tube from the TB to the supercharger)

LPG gas solenoid in the water/meth feed line between the check valve and the nozzle to stop engine vacuum sucking the reservoir dry

Hondata S300 set up to open the solenoid when the ECU sees 3 psi of boost

AEM setup to activate 50/50 water/meth injection at 5 psi, and go full cycle at 12 psi

AEM controller failsafe ouput connected to S300 to activate secondary maps when the AEM system detects a fault

S300 secondary maps set to retard ignition timing substantially (don't know for sure how much yet, but probably in the order of 10 degrees).

I'm expecting somewhere around 18 psi from my setup, so I might alter the full cycle point.

I've got high hopes for good temp reduction using this setup, and will be tuning properly for the expected temperatures. I'm pretty sure the failsafes in the AEM setup will cover about 99.9% of the possible problems I could face with water/meth injection, but I'm going in with my eyes open.

turbo97coupe

Here's a thread i came across a while ago, its not Intercooled but it is a W/M M62 JRSC setup it might help.

https://honda-tech.com/forums/forced-induction-16/dyno-test-water-methanol-injection-m62-supercharged-k20a2-2540440/

lyncoors

good find

C_Rock77

Pretty cool find...but it's comparing apples to oranges. K series can do some stuff B series couldn't dream of.

I CRX I

very interested in seeing how everything works out but it just seems like alot of things to rely on, im also curious as to what the AEM failsafe controller see's as system failure? as in what inputs or parameters does it read to diagnose a failure? any reason why you may have not gone the nitrous route instead?

Jaker

The controller monitors for electrical faults such as the pump driver shorting or going open (broken wire), insufficient or too high voltage for the pump, and low fluid level in the reservoir. It will also vary the driver output to the pump to maintain a consistant flow with varrying battery voltages.

I'm not really concerned about any failures of the other systems. All the wires are soldered, and the components are all automotive grade. I may also invoke the lean protection fatures in the S300.

I'm not permitted to use nitrous in the class I race in.

halcyon0

I've got a water/meth injection setup on my supercharged TRD tacoma and it works wonders.

I CRX I

i think thats a great example of what i stated previously, the w/m actually dropped HP an TQ a bit until some fuel was removed and timing advanced. if anything fails in that system or the mixture runs out, the car is undrivable.

Jaker

I don't necessarily agree that the car becomes undriveable. If the correct failsafes are in place, you just end up with a reduced power level and some higher intake temperatures if you continue to drive it with a vengance. The AEM kit has a dash mountable warning light that notifies you if there's a fault that triggered the failsafe mode.

I CRX I

ahhh ok, im basing everything on a daily driver rather then a road race vehicle but with road racing in mind, judging by the reservoir the w/m kit comes with, is there any possibility of the mixture not reaching the exit port inside the reservoir under heavy turns or over bumps etc.? im sure it would be full during the start of a race but after a while im the fluid may drop a bit allowing the mixture to move freely back and forth.

Jaker

Now that you mention it, the way I have my reservoir mounted, under hard acceleration it would be possible for the fluid level sensor, which is mounted at the back (in my case) of the tank to still sense the presence of fluid while the port on the bottom of the tank sucks air:





Then again I don't think my car would be capable of the longitudional G forces needed to achieve that (not enough power and traction), nor do I intend on letting the fluid levels get that low ever. The car is an autocross car.

I CRX I

my apologies, your correct, i kind of forgot you could drive a car out of boost....lol.

Jaker

Crap. Now you have me worried. I think I might move that port on the bottom of the tank closer to the back.

lyncoors

yeah but in this instance, a boosted engine is a boosted engine. its got to be tuned for meth. so you say comparing apples to oranges you cant put a sc and meth on a b series lol

I CRX I

hahahaha, sorry, that wasnt my intentions i swear......but now that i look at it, i think it would have been best if they shaped the bottom of their reservoir's cone shaped, its much more difficult for liquid to travel upwards then it would be from side to side using gravity as a deterrent... maybe you can fab up a better tank then the one supplied just to be on the safe side? are the auto X events you participate in long courses or just small cone filled parking lots like some I've seen? just curious as to how long one of those tanks would last when filled to the top.

C_Rock77

No..just speaking about some of the K series SC setups I've seen where they were running 11:1 Compression on 10+ lb boost levels on 93 octane. A B Series could never live doing that. Tony Palo just stated that the K head is much more efficient than the B, enabling it to do things the B can't dream of. That's all I was referring to.

lyncoors

oh ok. same logic tho meth will cool the air charge and combustion chamber on any engine. with anykind of boosted engine is a huge plus

C_Rock77

Yeah...I was wondering if anyone besides RMcDaniels had tried it with any beneficial results. Roger stated that he actually had some LOSSES with the Meth injection. I'm not sure if that's due to not pulling fuel when the meth sprays and not running adequate timing. I just know that he reported some losses.