TravisBiggie

Last night I picked up a b16 head with a bwr vtec conversion kit for $260 ( i got a steal on this)

Anyways, I forgot about 5-10 more things I need to run vtec, and my costs are higher than I expected. If I stay non vtec, I can upgrade my springs/retainers and CAMS for about 100$-200$ TOTAL, where vtec will be over $400.

I raced a 450-500whp civic a few weeks ago, and on 4th gear, he couldn't pull away from me (this is me running 362whp)

If I go vtec, I know I will be just shy of 500whp, but I'm not looking forward to 300ftlbs of torque at 500whp.

Overall, I know the vtec out flows the non vtec on all levels. I think its a matter of torque vs horsepower.

What to do, continue with vtec or build my non vtec head with some crower 403's 404s? My ultimate goal is to find the sweet spot with my 60 trim turbo on water meth and call it a day. Hopefully 450-500whp.

jdmh22eg2

i vote is non vtec, if you were to blow up stock bottom end they are EVERYWERE and cheap. many many ls-t setups on stock bottom have made well into 400's w/built heads. if its a matter if flow your after ls bottom and p8r head and turbo setup to your likeing.

Turbo-LS

iTrader: (4)

Vtec no question. And what other parts do you need if it already has lsvtec kit? That's all
You need other than ecu that has vtec or install the components.

TravisBiggie

I'm using a b18 block regardless of head so the block isn't the issue.

TravisBiggie

oil pressure switch (current is broken)
intake manifold (itr locally for 80!)
arp head studs 120?
adjustable cam gears
spark plug wires
gsr water pump/timing belt
gsr cams

things I could sell : arp b18/b20 head studs, b16 cams

I just sold my non vtec head. There is one locally for $130 with BC titanium retainers and springs. I think I could get a set of cams and cam gears for $300, and that would be it. (maybe a intake manifold)

So I would probably be spending the same amount of money, but I looooooooooove torque.. The video of the 500whp ls vs the 600whp gsr proves my point. I love that video and watch it over and over.

Turbo-LS

iTrader: (4)

The ls has close hp to two numbers because of port design and they don't make a lot more hp than torque. Vtec will make close to the same torque as an ls just 150+ more hp. People don't run LS heads for a reason. If they were better then people would be using them over vtec. Once you start getting up I to the power levels it takes a **** ton of boost and the head is a restriction. Believe me I sunk 2500 into an ls head years ago. If never run one ever again period. I'd part the car out before running an ls head

hon2984

I agree.... I also like the fact that the rockers are locked into the hear as compared to the ls head. Just seems to be an overall better design. I'm currently going to be doing the same thing to my LST.

TravisBiggie

Im convinced. bare itr intake manifold locally for 80$, should I pick this up? I plan on running gsr cams instead of b16, and picking up adjustable cam gears, am I going in the right direction?

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

don't need adjustable cam gears for stock cams, waste of money

Charlie Moua

iTrader: (3)

b16 or gsr cams are going to be way better than any LS cam. Don't feel like you have to sell the b16 cams right away. Also stock cams gears buddy, no need for adjustable ones. Yes $80 for a real ITR IM is a good deal.




well said justin.
I'll just break it down a little more.


I have several customers/friends who face this same dilemma(cost efficency vs. future power goals) once they reach approx 350whp. Here's how i break it down to them in terms of cost & performance.


a) stay NONvtec:
404 cams $315 new ($250ish used)
RM valvesprings (stock retainers) $160
Victor X intake manifold $270
arp head studs $115
be happy with 450ish whp & sub 7,800-8,000rpms powerband .... some have made 500whp with larger frame turbo but they are the exception as having a 1-off build.

b) VTEC conversion
stock head, cams $350-400ish
dist $150-200 good used OEM unit
vtec ecu $100
GE lsvtec kit $170
ARP headstuds $130
ITR or blox intake manifold $100-150
GSR timing belt & water pump = $160ish
powerwise = easily 500whp with room to spare. Stock cams have made well over 700whp. I would reccomend upgrade valvesprings like RM (snap fit design) if your going to be drag racing it and wanting to rev + 8500rpms.

The cheaper you can find good condition used parts the more attractive it is to do VTEC conversion. If your buying things all new or close to new cost then you will tend to want to stay the nonvtec route.



IMHO if you want +450whp... your turbo & engine will thank you for going VTEC.
Most LS/B20 guys with 55-57trim turbos are having to push +22psi just to make 400whp, which you could easily do that on 14-16psi. Food for thought.


GL
Charlie

slayer423

to the op: I completely agree with what you are saying. I too annihilate 500whp vtec Hondas even in crx chassis cuz either 1, they cant grip for **** cuz they make way too much power in a fwd, and 2, you cant control the boost with a vtec engine the same way u can with ls... now let me explain what I mean. first gear will almost never need more than 200whp which with 4 to 5 psi in a b18b is possible and you will always launch on the vtec car that makes 300whp with 5psi and same with 2nd gear cuz you can be full throttle and grip(street tires). now third gear gets tricky but that's what boost by gear is all about and you just gota fine tune it. you can fine tune vtec turbo all u want and u will always roast the **** out of the tires in first and be smacking rev limiter in 2nd aka losing and trust I know, im at the street races and the track every week. you don't want an engine that sends the power to the wheels like a fat *** nitrous shot in a fwd car, its just not smart. now all this applies if you want to stay at your goal of 450-500hp. cuz if you want to make 700+ then vtec is the only way to go but then at that point its a racecar and the only way you will ever put down that much is with sicks, I rather fix up a rwd car at those hp levels if you ask me.

lol I get exactly what your saying hahah, *** making 500whp with 300trq, I make 456 and 402 trq non vtec at 22psi.

heres a vid I shot today with a friend who also didn't believe my integra on street tires can beat his 10sec bike.

slayer423

stock regrinded cams. cost 35 bucks to grind each one. keep it cheap and simple man. just reinforce the block and get the right gas and crank that bitch up. and get a brand name turbo so u can run high boost reliably(11blade billet too, their better for higher boost)

TravisBiggie

I would be estatic with 500whp, going vtec or not vtec, so I'm not concerned about future power. I would love the torque of non vtec.

slayer, can you tell me your set up? block, cams, intake manifold, turbo?


These are my two possible setups

b18b1 block (eagle rods, NPR pistons)
b16 head
gsr cams
itr intake manifold
60 trim turbo
1000cc injectors
water methanol injection 50/50

b18b1 block (eagle rods, NPR pistons)
b18b1 head
crower 403/403 cams
crower valve train
aftermarket intake manifold?
60 trim turbo
water methanol injection

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Not a bad video, glad to see you've gotten your setup tuned great

and not to knock it but any 300+hp car can hang and/or pull on a 600cc bike (especially a bone stock bike) from a roll (a dig you'd be fucked, hard lol) it's all about the launch and not missing gears, also how good the rider of the bike is

I have a bike that would eat you for lunch 2004 ZX-10R (We built an actual AMA Superbike then after racing put on street bodywork.. all ninja like haha) makes 192rwhp and is downright scary in a straight line


torque is mostly a function of displacement (and to some extent the stroke of the motor)... but a turbo is like faux displacement, for every atmosphere(BAR) of pressure you feed the motor it acts like a motor twice its size. so say a 2.0l 4 cylinder running 14.7psi, would act like a 4 liter motor.

The reason you see a lot of VTEC motors making lots of hp and not torque is because people run huge turbos that don't accentuate the motors powerband. if you have a properly sized turbo, a healthy boost level, decent compression and such, you'll make almost as much TQ as HP (LightningTeg made 300whp/300lbft at 20psi on a gt2860r on a bone stock motor) so it all comes down to more than just a head

slayer423

definitely cant disagree with what you said especially the turbo size part, and I grant that a bike with 192 would smoke me lol. ive beaten 750s toofrom like a 50 roll but with bigger dudes on the bike, not a 120lbs skiny dude.

slayer423

my setup:
-b18b1 head with supertech valvetrain(just springs retainers and valves)
-stock regrinded cams(unsure of specs)
-wiseco forged pistons 8:3.1 compression 1.8L (81mm)
-stock crank, sleeved, eagle rods
-custom garret billet turbo similar to 60-1 t3 stg 5 turbine
-3" full exhaust, ramhorn headers,
-skunk2 intake manifold portmatched to 70mm tb
-gsr tranny with quaife lsd
-stiffened suspension fully tuned with traction bars
-750cc shot of 50/50 water meth Devils own kit with do10 nozzle activates at 7psi
- weighed at truck scale, 2202 lbs without driver
-all plastics/dashboard and front 2 seats are in tact but c/f sunroof, c/f hatch, hood, sidemirrors...
-boost by gear, boost ranges from 5 to 25, but I haven't used more than 21 on the street, anything more than 21 and it spins drastically in fourth gear of course. third gear tops out at 15psi before it starts spinning

the only stuff I cheaped out on was the intercooler piping, intercooler, and wastegate. my intercooler and wastegate are from godspeed and the wastegate is amazing as long as you got a EBC. I use to have a turbo smart and it would creep and my friend has a tial and same thing, but with the godspeed rs wastgate (44mm) it holds solid with a tiny 5psi spring and with 80% duty cycle I get 25psi solid and it doesn't creep or taper

TravisBiggie

stock regrinds huh?? What do you rev to and when do you top making power?? do you have a dyno sheet?!


750cc shot of water meth.. I got two nozzles with my aem kit, but I am unsure of which to use.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

yea, 600s are mainly quick, not fast. they corner like a cars on rails on a banked corner lol

still, it takes an impressive setup in a full weight street car just to even hang with a stock sportbike of any make/model/displacement, so props on that. you car is making good power now it seems

You might get the jump on our bike from a roll... even on DOT race slicks it will still spin up the back tire constantly lol

TravisBiggie

at 362whp, I hung with a couple 600s, got pulled on pretty good by a 750 and 1000cc.

I have a feeling cam regrinds will save me quite a bit of money.. but I'm curious how the power curve is.

Turbo-LS

iTrader: (4)

You can't control boost with a vtec like you can with an LS? That's news to me I seem to be controlling boost just fine. That has got to be the most retarded statement I've ever heard right up there with ls tranny is better because you stay in boost longer. Lol

Natural Aspirations

This is why you don't regrind LS cams.

Natural Aspirations

That guy is off his rocker....

He needs a pair of sweatpants and a bible.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

I think he was talking about controlling boost on his non vtec motor... I never saw a reference to boost control issues with VTEC heads unless I missed it?

And to add on to why you normally see motors with vtec heads make much more torque than power and why people with VTEC heads run larger turbos is because they are trying to exploit and benefit from the fact that VTEC heads have much higher flowrates (bone stock, cams and all) when compared to a non VTEC head... Also the aftermarket has always supported VTEC heads more than any other honda head next to K series heads, so cams and other parts are abundant to help increase torque production, make more horsepower, and shift the power curve to where the individual likes it.

Like previous stated, for the most part a VTEC head will make the same torque as a non vtec head (if you had 2 identical setups, with the needed concessions for a VTEC head... intake manifold, ls/v kit, etc) but the VTEC head will also make 100-150 more horsepower at the same torque level, especially in the higher rpm range where a non vtec head would normally fall on its face

LS AzZkIkr

I get into this with my brother in law all the time. Yet he never beats me with his LS on 15 or so psi vs my low budget(mostly stock) lsvtec setup on 7 psi. We have very similar turbo setups in similar weighted cars. IMO there is nothing wrong with and LS-t but if you find the deals or have the money, VTEC is the way!

Boost control and traction is all dependent on the setup and drivers abilities. I've seen some stout LS-t setups before and remember Justin's old red hatch. My friend brad built his top mount and wouldn't shut up about how awesome his car was! But like he said earlier, he would part his car out before running a non-VTEC head again!

Charlie Moua

iTrader: (3)

stock regrind cams can be done and make power but as Natural Aspirations pictures shows ... it's gets a little tricky.

With that said I've ran 2 series or Rocket Motorsports regrind LS cams on my brothers B20 and made good power and completely destroyed the Delta 272. I remember setting lash on my brothers car with the big RM cams & I was like "wtf is this going to work? lol


IIRC web also does regrinds, and exospeed offers regrinds too but it's been a while since i've seen anyone run his cams.