I'm very much upstream from the decision of which turbo kit / homebrew to go with but there's one option that looks very interesting: the Vortech air / water intercooler. Here's a link to their centrifugal supercharger setup for the civic:

http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/...9-00civic.html

That little bitty box on top is the heat exchanger; there's an oil cooler (used for the water) mounted down by the radiator. The size of the intercooler plus the 14-1 heat exchange ratio of air-water (from Corky Bell's book) makes this sound like a very interesting option.

Anyway, I'd be really interested to hear what the Elders of All Things Turbo think about this as a replacement for the air-air intercoolers that we see on most kits.

Thanks.

 

Its funny that you asked this question since i had thought about using it in a Turbo app. I currently have a DRAG 3 kit for my Si and I know the air/water ic are better heat exchangers and thought this would be a good alternative but pricey! Maybe someone will jump in and actually answer this question!

 

That's exactly what I'm thinking: starting with my 70K mile N/A GSR, adding a lowish boost / lowish cost kit, tuning and making sure I'm not a complete idiot and <U>then</U> adding the Vortech heat exchanger. Obviously, in generation 1 of the BobTurbo, I wouldn't add an air-air intercooler that I'd have to remove later.

The fact that you run water hoses rather than air pipes around your motor is also very motivating.

All input welcome.

Thanks.

 

i like air to liquid ICs, but why vortech, why not just make one yourself? Or have one made up for you?
There are downsides to water ICs, 1-complexity 2- more parts 3-you better hope the IC isnt gonna leak, or else, hydrolock 4-"weight" which is not significant 5-long term under the hood temps will bring water temps up a little bit, but the oilcooler should take care of that and bring it near ambient.
But IMO the pros outweigh the cons.

 

The main reason I came up with Vortech as a brand name was that they seem to be good at this sort of thing (many of their supercharger kits use their air-water set-ups). I wouldn't begin to consider making one myself (for the reasons you listed and more).

Regarding complexity: remember that you are no longer running hefty piping all around your engine (losing pressure the whole way). True, you have two "tanks" (one to exchange heat from the air, one to radiate it up front) and there's an additional pump motor. Does that outweigh the physics?

Thanks.

 

I have this air-liquid setup... but not the vortech one... just all custom... it's not that complex. It's not expensive either. If you just buy a SPearco air-liquid cooler, then go get a oil cooler core ... some hose and a water pump you can hook it all up... Getting a Tank is tricky.... It all depends on how picky you are. I was quite picky and ended up having a tank custom made (actually less then buying a regular plastic tank) out of aluminum that sits in my spare tire well.

The whole setup works great. I think people have stuck with the air-air because they like that look of the hugeass intercooler in the front... and also a lot of people are affraid of trying new things.. But not me.... i wanted a low-key sleeper look that works great... which is why i went this route.

 

I've seen the Vortec (sp) supercharger set up in a newish Civic SI, and the owner/installer said it was a real bitch to run all the plumbing through and around into the engine compartment.

But here's an idea I've been playing with for a while... why not make use of the evaporator from the A/C system in your car (no AC for YOU, though), and get BETTER than ambient intercooling!!!?

 

Because the cooling capacity of the A/C system is orders of magnitude too small to be even marginally effective cooling your intake charge.

You have to remember your turbo is pushing MANY MANY times more air mass than your AC/heater blower fan. Add to that the fact that the turbocharged air is typically well over a hundred degrees hotter than outside air. So figure on a really good day your AC system can drop the vent temperature to maybe 50 degrees cooler than the air it's pulling in. Run 10 times as much air through it now... it will get the temperature down to a whopping 5 degrees cooler. So your 200 degree intake charge is now 195 degrees... see where I'm going with this? Oh yeah, and all the heat your AC pulls from the air goes into the condenser which is (surprise!) right in front of the radiator so a good portion of that heat goes right back into your engine cooling system. There's a really good reason people use "ambient intercooling". It's free and it's abundant.

 

Well, I was hoping that the whole car project would <U>not</U> be a divorce-inducer: "Honey, I took the AC out of my car. &lt;whap&gt; Ow!"

The reason I'm interested specifically in the Vortech setup is that I see the potential to reduce total air travel: it doesn't have to loop nearly 360 degrees around the engine to get to the intake manifold. The oil cooler that they use as the ambient/water heat exchanger is also quite small and stealthy looking.

Besides, the actual intercooler looks really macho sitting up on top of the block. Much slicker than the WRX. Nice "ooo" factor. Okay, a ricey motivation, pretend I didn't mention it.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

the water/air IC has better internal flow area so you lose little pressure through the core, and piping for the air is less. Complex i mean because now you have a pump and a bunch water tubes running around everywhere.

Like i said before, i think the benefits outweigh the hinderances of a water/air IC

the AC idea also doesnt fly cause the AC compressor takes a good bunch of power, and like mentioned it's not nearly enough flow to cool the cfm your engine is gonna want, maybe ONEDAY according to Corky Bell.


MDA- how big is you reseviour? Im thinking of putting mine in the sparewheel well also. Oh, did you remove your spare?!


[Modified by Ricehornet, 5:51 PM 7/31/2001]

 

Ok,

I'd have to agree that running the water hoses were a pain.... specially since my tank is in the trunk and there isn't much else to say other then, it was a bitch. None the less.. i have 2 x half inch high pressure air hoses that run from the tank on the floor under the passenger seat (had to drill trough a cross member under the seat) and then through the firewall just under my batt.

Also, as was mentioned, the small cross section of the IC does make for a low pressure drop of &lt; 0.25 lbs - 0.5lbs depending on the size of the IC.

My tank is 4 gallon which sits in the wheel well so as to keep my trunk clear... all the hoses and IC and the oil cooler core probably gives me another gallon... It probably adds 40-50 lbs of weight to my car... but i dont much care... it's a daily driver... and the extra water takes just that much more intake charge temp to heat up.... and naturally when i hit the track... ice can be used... which more then makes up for a few extra lbs.

Other setups like this that i've seen usually use only a 2 gallon tank...

I might also add that i have bypass valves so i can take the oil cooler core out of the picture should i be running ice.


ohh and yes i have no spare tire... My ride is so low that the little donut spare is useless to me anywayz.... so why have it .... right ? ahha...


[Modified by MDA, 5:42 PM 7/31/2001]

 

4 gallons, thats pretty big.
I was thinking about 2 gallon. and i was gonna try to put in the the wheel well somehow....porbably have to custom make a fiberglass tank to fit there.

The extra weight you put on is nothing since you took the spare out, so it balances out...

MDA im gonna have to take a look at it this fall if you dont mind man.

 

Here's an install page for the system that I started the thread on: C-speedracing.com

The water cooler (really an oil cooler but works fine) plus the little bitty water tank plus the actual (very sexy) heat exchanger give you a lot of internal water volume. Enough? Well, it's for a centrifugal supercharger (essentially a turbo on a stick) running 8+ psi. You make the call.

Look at that water tank, though. I love how it hides in the corner of the fender well. This is really what got me started on this thread: these guys have a really slick air-water system and I'm interested in taking everything they offer <U>except</U> that crazy axle shaft and the turbo on a stick.

http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/v...3/dsc00001.jpg
http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/v...3/dsc00009.jpg
http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/v...1/dsc00009.jpg

BTW, I'm not inlining the images: they're pretty big and the site's worth checking out in person anyway.



[Modified by DoctorBob, 2:49 PM 8/1/2001]

 

Yeah... 4 gallons is fairly large.... we didn't really meansure it up like that .... just junked the spare tire... and measured across... then about 1.25 feet deep and about 5 inches down (whatever fits in the well) and had this guy custom cut and weld up an alluminum tank.... put a couple ports on the bumber size for the water pickup and return... and a nice big 3 inch port in the top so i can get ice in there easily...

I'm in the process of buying a digital camera... I'll post some pics once i get it.

I really like that oil cooler core that is on C-Speed site.... mine doesn't look that good since mine really isnt an oil cooler core... but just a generic cooling core... you'd have to see it..

I'm not overly impressed with a tiny little tank like that... it hardly looks like it would hold a litre... granted u have the water in the system itself... i'd still prefer a bigger tank that way there is much more water to warm up...

 

Fair enough. I suspect that you and I might have different design goals: I don't really want to drag race this car. I'd rather make the best street car that I can. Road racing / high speed driving school might come up in the distant future but not any time with two baby seats in the back.

Also, given that Vortech is keeping all the water up front (rather than your honkin big tank in the back), smaller is better in regards to weight distribution. You're adding weight to the back: good. Vortech adds a little weight to the front: not so good but not toooo bad.

Thanks again for all the feedback.

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

fock fock fock, I HAD THAT IDEA TOO!!!!!! Ask MarkC, Arturbo, Woong &gt;&gt;
Damn it, not i have to think more....i had like a few ideas and that was one of them.grrr. See if i only had the authorization to turbo my car already... But dont worry i still got a couple ideas Its not that i want to show off, it's just that, i want to do somthing that i thought up, and not copy exact set ups.

Actually my idea (after i saw those pictures) are a little different. so it's all good.

But it is a nice set up eh


[Modified by Ricehornet, 2:40 PM 8/1/2001]

 

I'd like to know what pump you're using? I've heard a bilge pump for boats work. Thanks for any info.

-Roy

 

Yeah, Bilge pumps work i believe, or at least thats what i've heard. Just some electrical pump.


[Modified by Ricehornet, 1:40 AM 8/2/2001]

 

Doc,

Don't take me the wrong way.... I'm not cut'in your design.... i like that idea quite a bit.... im into the sleak low key look... hiding stuff like what you've done in the fender wall is an awesome idea.... which is why i put my tank in place of my spare tire....

The only reason i comment on that tank was that a lot of people have the idea that the water gets hot with water IC's.... and i try to inform people that it really doesnt if the system works well.... since i can't really see the size of your resovoir.. i only hope it has enough capacity to pull the heat and cool the water before recirculating... or else it will heat up.

My ride is both street and strip.... but i always keep a low key look .... personally i would rather have a cooling core like whatchu got.... what did that cost itself ? or did it come as part of the kit ?

 

Yeah any electrical pump will work... but whomever makes the IC itself will recommend a pump flow rate that will work best..... a pump that moves big gulps of water slowly will NOT work as well as one that moves a little less but much more quickly...

Also make sure to hook up pumps in the PUSH position rather then trying to suck the water around the system.... it'lll work better for you...

 

If you look waaay up at the top of the thread, I'm still in design mode: 95 GSR Sedan + I/H/E which (when I have the money :-p) will be I/H/E - H + Turbo. The reason that I like the Vortech system is (a) someone has already put it together and (b) somebody has already put it together.

My car is intended to be a no-dragstrip street car. That's a totally different heat profile, even if I were to take up recreational autocrossing. Like I said (in this or the other thread), all that water is perfect for your setup: lots of heat sink + weight added to the back. My car is a commuter + little boy x2 transporter.

Finally, a vendor-based system like the Vortech has less of a divorce-inducing factor....

--
"... and the result is more ordnance on target." -- Doctor Bob

 

I hear ya Doc....

I like to refer to my ride as my grocery getter... no worries... but now and then i like to have fun with it.... especially like to play with the Stangs...

You'll enjoy your ride once it's done... well it's a fun ride even as it stands... but so much more with some added toys eh?

So seriously, are you really a doc ?

Is your wife against u mod'in the ride ? I musta lucked out, my lady is into it... Ever since we got an IS300, she's just waiting for the supercharger to come out ... (please dont flame me about getting a Toyota, it's the family car, I still rip around in my Turbo Teg)



[Modified by MDA, 10:40 AM 8/2/2001]

 

The best part is that I used to have a 5.0 Mustang. Ran my GSR through an underpass with the Comptech exhaust set-up wailing last night and thought, wow this is waaaay more fun!

I really am but my standard line is "I'm not that kind of doctor." PhD in Computer Science with a focus in, uh, classified stuff. 1/2 Don't normally use the "title" but it makes for a good login name, eh?

Not really, it's more a case of what Daddy's are expected to do. If I were to badly disable my daily driver, that would be a problem, though.

Token Forced-induction discussion:
I am currently running the Comptech exhaust and headers on my GSR. Obviously, when I go turbo, the headers have to find another home but I'd really like to keep the exhaust. Anybody have any negative comments about their suitability for turbo? I know that Thermal is the accepted vendor of big old 3inch exhausts but I already paid for this setup....

Thanks,
Bob



[Modified by DoctorBob, 1:56 PM 8/2/2001]

 

So you used to have a stang.... So you can appreciate the look that those guys will give u when u blow them away with your little 1.8L GSR.... Ahhah... tis tooo classic eh ?

So you're a Doc in Comp Sci... that's coooo.... and well... i know whatchu mean about the daddy sterotype... although i don't have any kids yet... people tell me that a minivan is enroute... i continously reinforce the fact that i will NEVER buy a minivan... but they dont by it...

Hhmmm... actually Renault made a mini van a while back... cost 1 million... have 6 racing bucket seats each with 5 point harnesses and an F1 motor that moved that puppy from 0-200 km/h (notice the 200!) in about 6 seconds. Now that's a minivan.