mike93eh2

should i put a ball bearing down in each head stud hole before i put the arp stud in so it wont bottom out? if so which size bearing should i use.

accordking

you're saying to use a ball bearing take up the space at the bottom of the hole? Please elaborate.

mike93eh2

yea i heard alot of people do this so the studs dont bottom out and strip the threads in the block. i have done that before and it really sucked.

komat

if you scared of botteming out hte threads. switch over to golden eagle headstuds

ELSpool

Just put the studs in hand tight, then back them out a 1/4 turn. I've done that on all my motors and had no head lifting issues...D-series...

Muckman

iTrader: (2)

Hand tight is equal to prob 4-5 ft/lbs and then your backing them out from there. I am very surprised you dont have any loosening problems doing that.

Yeah Ive heard about a few people doing this BB trick before. I started a thread about this that was sent to ARP
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1804795

mike93eh2

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by komat &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if you scared of botteming out hte threads. switch over to golden eagle headstuds </TD></TR></TABLE>

i already have arp's and golden eagle doesnt make **** for a d16.

RC000E

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Muckman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hand tight is equal to prob 4-5 ft/lbs and then your backing them out from there. I am very surprised you dont have any loosening problems doing that.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't understand this statement. A headstud should not be torqued into the block at all. If the headstud were torqued the fastener would essentially be pulling the block up to the head..basically the load would be in the threads of the fastener deep inside the block and the threads at the base of the stud would be engaged inappropriately.

By not placing torque on the fastener you are essentially putting the head into compression between the block surface and the fasteners bolt. This is putting the central shaft of the headstud in tension. Your getting the contact between threads where you want it, and distributing load on the stud appropriately.

With those factors in place, there will be no loosening of the stud. It simply isn't possible because the elasticity of the central shaft of the stud allows thread to engage each other on both ends.....it can't loosen.

Muckman

iTrader: (2)

Yeah that sounds fantastic on paper but in real life, they come loose. Quite often too. Thats why so many people torque them in the block. In fact ARP recommends that you torque their head studs for aluminum domestic block applications. The only difference between those and our Honda ARP studs - a taper on the end of the stud that allows the studs to be safely torqued without bottoming out.

a1320addict

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Muckman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah that sounds fantastic on paper but in real life, they come loose. Quite often too. .</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well put Hand tight then to 10 ft lbs, no problems

HamiltonRex

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by a1320addict &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well put Hand tight then to 10 ft lbs, no problems </TD></TR></TABLE>

i did as the instrutions said, into the block hand tight, supplied lube uptop. Ive seen people use lube on the threads wher eit goes into hte block

mike93eh2

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HamiltonRex &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i did as the instrutions said, into the block hand tight, supplied lube uptop. Ive seen people use lube on the threads wher eit goes into hte block </TD></TR></TABLE>

yea the instructions say to do that.

Bailhatch

I'm going to use bearings on my next build. I always tq them in to 9-10ft/lbs anyway but if you use a bearing it will preload the threads in the opposite way they will be when the stud is under tension. This will cancel out some of the tension the threads will see once the head is on and should be easier on the threads. but no matter how you do it, tq them in the block a little

Srr

iTrader: (2)

subscribed

RC000E

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Muckman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah that sounds fantastic on paper but in real life, they come loose</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, as in your situation, I can only stand by what I know and have experienced. I have made them hand tight and have never once had any loosening problems. I stand by the simple facts on how such fasteners function.

Stating that ARP recommends tightening them doesn't really convince me any differently. A company will respond with such instructions anytime there is a common problem amongst people using the product. If it isn't detrimental to the product, yet saves bad talk against their product they'll release such instructions.

The simple matter is though, ARP's have only in the past couple of years gone to the allen head recess at the top of the stud for light torquing purposes. Before then they had always been installed upon basic principles of hand tightening. Call it aluminum blocks, but I call it a large uprising of amateur engine builders starting in the mid-late 90's that have met many various problems and tend to never want to accept blame for certain mishaps.

All I am saying is numerous publications on fastener technology I've read, speaking in reference to F1 applications, never condoned applying torque when inserting headstuds.

I will suffice to say "to each his own" on this one though. I have never had a problem, and until I do I won't change my practices. If you have had those issues, then by all means torque them if it makes you feel comfortable. The ball bearing like the O.P. stated may be the best of both worlds...who knows.

Muckman

iTrader: (2)

If you use a ball bearing 5/16" is the biggest you can use. I tried a 3/8" and it got stuck in the threads. It wasn't fun trying to get it out.

Finland

I'm not sure I like the idea of giving up thread depth. I hand tightened mine and haven't had any issues, but I believe Muckman when he said he had issues..I'm interested to know the root cause.

PrecisionH23a

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bailhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm going to use bearings on my next build. I always tq them in to 9-10ft/lbs anyway but if you use a bearing it will preload the threads in the opposite way they will be when the stud is under tension. This will cancel out some of the tension the threads will see once the head is on and should be easier on the threads. but no matter how you do it, tq them in the block a little </TD></TR></TABLE>

I do this with all of our builds. Sometimes when you 'finger tight' the studs the threads may 'catch' not allowing you to properly 'finger tight' them to all the same uniformity. The good thing about doing 9-10ft-lbs is you have uniformity and no question about the studs not being in properly. 9-10lbs is also the torque for 8mm bolts (10mm heads) and the majority of us finger tight them anyway (for external applications at least)

mike1114

iTrader: (1)

AEBS also has it in their instructions to TQ them down to 10lbs first. And also to use moly-lube or oil on the threads.

Too many have had issues just hand tightening them.

doubleA

Ive never had a problem with arps backing out. I wouldnt give up the extra threads holding to my block. I put all the studs in and use a straight edge to make sure they are all bottomed out.

rmcdaniels

I've never had a problem with putting ARP head studs in finger-tight, then backing them out a bit (1/4 or 1/2 turn). I learned that from a shop that builds motors professionally and they didn't seem to have a problem doing it that way either.

Muckman

iTrader: (2)

After you do that did you ever take a torque wrench to em and figure out how many ft/lbs the studs were? I would feel alot more comfortable being able to torque all the studs to the same tightness you do by hand, that way I know all the studs are consistent and accurate. I think that is entirely where this myth lies.

Savalicious

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mike1114 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">AEBS also has it in their instructions to TQ them down to 10lbs first. And also to use moly-lube or oil on the threads.

Too many have had issues just hand tightening them.</TD></TR></TABLE>

AEBS as well as GE use what they call a dog point on the end of the stud, this is used to help distribute load when torqueing the stud, basically using a ball bearing would work in the same manner. When using a dog point style stud is when you want to pre-load or torque the stud, if there is no dog point it is recommend to be hand tight as to not stress the threads when torqueing the head. That is what i was told when i went on a tour at A-1 fastners, they have a real trick facility and are top notch guys.

agrn93ls

what about this guys. i ran mine ALL the way down with about 15 ft lbs or so then lightly backed them off


then i would run them up and down a turn or 2 with real light pressure and feel where the threads would start to bottom then gave like 2-3 ft lbs

then i used a straight edge to check them for depth, which didnt neccessarily work cause a couple actually a little longer i took them back out to check. so???

ninesecrx

Just a useful tid bit, I would never recommend putting oil on the threads that go into the block. I have seen cases in the past that the head stud actually hydraulicked the block with oil and the block cracked.