Kevs02Accord

Hey guys looking for some input. I am planning on adding a turbo to my 02 accord, 4cyl. Looking to run between 6 to 10 psig. I am shooting for at most 250 to 300 crank hp. I am going to use this as my dd. I dont want to spend a lot so I am trying to piece the kit together myself.

I have plotted a couple of points and looked over several maps.

Here are a couple of my calculations.

Calculations, CFM 1= 29.6 lbs/min or 422 cfm at 1.7 PR and redline, this is the red bar
CFM 2= 14.8 lbs/min or 211 cfm at 1.7 PR and 50% of redline, this is the blue bar
CFM 3=5.92 lbs/min or 84.4 cfm at 1 PR and 20% of redline, this is the green bar

I used a pr of 1.7 since 10 psig is the most I am going to run, at least with this current setup.

I attached pics of the compressors.

I think all the compressors look good, at least based on the points I plotted.

In this case I think it comes down to price and availability. I know you can get the 16g for fairly cheap, not so sure about the 20g, what about the garrett turbos, are those ones you can find in a junkyard or cheap?

Am I missing something with these compressor maps that would make one of the 5 better than the other, or possibly another one altogether?

Kevs02Accord

Bump, anyone with some input?

xile6

Only thing i can say is psi doesnt really mean anything.
1 turbo could make 200hp on 16psi while the other make 300hp on 9psi.

And it will be hard to find premade manfiold for anything other then a t3.

Been looking for infomation for a friends f22b2 and all they got is t3 stuff and very lil information

Kevs02Accord

Would you be able to modify the stock manifold with a t3 flange?

xile6

You can add a adapter plate to a t3 manifold but it offsets the way the turbo sits.

gabocastano

Just get a Garrett t3/t4 50 trim.

Kevs02Accord

I am guessing this is because of the adapter plate? How easy / hard are these to find?

You mean increasing the distance from the manifold, and or rotating the turbo?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

it pushes the turbo down to where the oil return line may present a problem

Kevs02Accord

Got it. I am leaning toward the 16g or 20g just because they can be had cheap and i am not looking for a huge power gain.

xile6

Build your own manifold or get a log steel one and cut the flange off and weld a dsm t25 to it.
Don't forget that you may save money on the turbo but waste it on fabbing up the downpipe to fit right.
Vs spending a lil mor eon the turbo and having better flanges and fitting better.

Kevs02Accord

Good point. If i used the t3/t4 are there junkyard manis that would fit an f23? Or am i looking at new either way?

Schister66

Although the turbos may be cheap, that is going to be offset by the difficulty or price difference in finding a 16g specific manifold for an F23...which I would imagine doesn't exist in large numbers, if at all. That means a custom (expensive) manifold unless you build it yourself, which i'm not sure i'd recommend.

All in all, its easier to buy a T3 Super 60 or T3/T04e 50trim and a T3 flanged manifold. Its generic and allows you to upgrade turbos in the future.

Kevs02Accord

Hmm, thanks for the advice. I will have to look more into the super 60, i have heard mention of it, but have not investigated it at all.

How is it easier to install a super 60 considering it has the same flange type as the 16 and 20g?

I looked at the compressor map for the super 60 and it doesn't look good for my points I plotted. My redline at ~29 lbs/min and 1.7 PR is past the choke line, my 50% rpm point is great, however, 20% rpm when boost starts to build is really close to the surge line.

Edit, the 50 trim looks a lot better than the super 60, however the map doesn't look as good. I will look at some more t3/t4 compressors.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

the super 60 is NOT the same turbine inlests as the Mitsubishi 16G and 20G Turbines. Nor does that have the same lbs/min flow rate as the T3/T04E "50 trim". I think you're a bit confused as the flanging systems, compressor wheels and turbine sizing. You're looking at only 2 sides of a cube.

Though I do believe that the T3/T04E 50 trim would be the best option for this engine type. But, perhaps its better to let you learn a bit more and figure it out as you go along.

2point2

x3

cheap and good compatibility with other parts. You wont cobble something else together for cheaper unless you have some welding/fab skills.

Kevs02Accord

Yup, I was missing that fact. I talked with Phil at spoolinperformance.com and he clued me into that. I see why you guys were saying it was a hassle for the manifold.

You make a good point. I am a little hard headed. I need to the let the info soak a little longer I guess.

Not saying I won't get it, any idea on price of these turbos? I got a quote about a log style manifold for the 16/20g and I need to see what the difference would be if I didn't needed a modified one.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Your issue with the 16g and 20Gs are the turbine housings, they use a unique 5 bolt DSM setup made for an O2 housing. Your downpipe will be a PITA to make.

Genuine Mitsubishi 16G and 20Gs are very expensive, and the best bet is to find a used one that hasn't been too destroyed. All the others will be some cheap "billet" version that someone on ebay tried to put together, in which, again, you'd be wasting money.

By the time you find one of the nicer ones, you were better off with the new T3/T04E 50 trim.

Here's the wonderful flange system you're going to be working with staying with your 16g/20G idea.



And the wonderful downpiple flange to work with , and yes, for the DSMs the T25 turbocharger that comes factory uses this radius flange too... Its the T25 family of turbos, but in a Mitsubishi flange setup and turbine setup.



Here's the radius flange inlet you'll be trying to convert from T3, which most are from E-bay and push the turbo WAY too far down even if you tried.



Then all you have to do is Fab up one of these, or try one for fitment from Punishment racing



As opposed to a very simple T3 flanged T3/T04E 50 trim turbocharger



with a simple manifold and easier to integrate with an external wastegate, and easier downpipe from a variety of companies.

Schister66

Specialty flanges are a pain in the ***...trust me, Subaru loves to use them. Stick to standard T3 flanged turbos and this will go much more smoothly

...and the goal was to save money, but even that isn't going to happen.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I would completely agree. In addition, too many people look at "T25" as though its simply the turbo and turbine housing set, when in a lot of oem applications, its a T25 turbo from Garrett, but may use an entirely different flange system to fulfill their contractual obligations. People forget that only about 11% of Garrett's line is in the performance market. The bulk of the Honeywell/GE business model is for mass production and OEM application from buses, to tractors, to combines, to hydroelectric turbines.

See, the GReddy 18G came in a variety of turbine formats as it was a Garrett/Mitsu hybrid. It wasn't until later did they go even smaller with the T517Z turbine for use in the RSX and even as Subaru upgrades.

For example.
The ones for Honda were a T25 flanged system that utilzed a Garrett turbine and 5 bolt downpipe flange





Product image


Now, the SAME TURBO but now imagine that in the 7cm turbine housing for the Subaru EJ20 upgrades. Its still considered an 18G, even though some builders could make the same ones themselves.

Here's the ones that were made by other companies when MHI parts were easier to get in the TD05 Housing.


Here is the same one through GReddy, before the other companies came into the game using a slightly larger TD05-H housing, but the turbine wheel is still that of a Garrett, and not a full MHI




So guys, be careful when saying you're using a "cheaper" version, even though on paper it may seem to make sense at first flush. a lot of times, especially for honda custom setups, unless you're prepared to do some fab (and some actually are ), it's not as cheap as you think.. THINK TWICE BEFORE TRYING TO INTEGRATE A TURBO YOU GOT "FOR FREE".

Kevs02Accord

Right on man, that info helps a lot. I can totally see why that mitsu 16/20g is a pain. I need to dig a little more and see where to pick up these t3/t4 turbos.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Just pm me. I'll point you in the right direction

Kevs02Accord

Got an update. Been going back and forth with TheShodan, getting some good info and pointers. I am trying to put together a parts list from other builds on the web. Looking for some input. Specifically am I missing anything? I am trying to make the list inclusive so I can check things off as I order them. Then when I go to assemble I know I have everything. Second question, I have marked some things as "required" even though I don't know that they are. If you see something on the list that really isn't necessary let me know. Last, of the components listed which can I buy used?

Input is appreciated.

See the attached excel file, or the horrible copy / paste version.

Chassis
2002 Honda Accord F23
Daily Driver
153k on the clock
Target HP (200-250 crank)

Purpose
A little more get up and go, for around town and highway driving.

Parts Price Purchased Required New or Used
Engine Management
AEM FIC 240 Yes Yes Used
Wiring Harnes 200 No Yes New

Turbo
T3/T4 50 Trim 700 No Yes New

Turbo Timer No Yes New

Turbo Manifold 300 No Yes New

Down Pipe 250 No Yes New

Exhaust No Yes New
2.5 inch No Yes New

Fuel Injectors No Yes New

Fuel Pump No Yes New

Gauges
Boost No Yes New
AFR No Yes New
Oil Temp No Yes New
Transmission Temp No Yes New

Wastegate No Yes New

Blow Off Valve No Yes New

Intercooler
FMIC No Yes New
SMIC No Yes New
Intercooler Piping

Transmission Cooler No Yes New

Oil Cooler No Yes New

Timming Belt Yes Yes New

Water Pump Yes Yes New

Misc
Exhaust Mani Gasket No Yes New
Turbo Oil Feed/ Return No Yes New
Air Filter No Yes New
Boost Controller No Yes New
Vaccum Hoses No Yes New
Vaccum Manifold No Yes New

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

xile6

List looks good.
I'd go new on most of the parts.
Injectors are better new then old and if old flow test them. I use Rdx injectors for my civic. Brand new for around $250 a set.
Turbo should be new and air filter, pump, oil lines etc...

And just make sure the motor is in good condition before boosting. And ethe aem fic will work but you might have some start up delays.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Anything with a t2 based turbine side is going to be entirely too small for a 2.3 liter motor. You have more motor than turbine and will choke the turbine side before you tap out the compressor

AFaccord made amazing numbers on his built 10:1 f23 with a simple 57 trim t3/t04e

If you're dead set on a gt series unit you'll need something with a gt30 based turbine side at a minimum. A gt30r would be a nice turbo for the f23... you'll have great response and the potential for a very broad power curve that makes plenty of midrange torque and top end power.