Turbo + Burning oil + Oil consumption = perplexed and frustrated. Need some help!!!
08-29-2005, 05:29 PM
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Turbo + Burning oil + Oil consumption = perplexed and frustrated. Need some help!!!
The Setup:I have a fresh engine in the car. Sleeved by AEBS, bored out to 84mm, low compression pistons, and everything is forged. The head has stainless steel valves, new guides, new seals and I had the seats reworked. 1000cc injectors. The engine is a B18C5.
Currently the new motor has 1000 miles on it. Recently a compression and leak down test were performed. The compression was 210 exactly in all four cylinders. The leakdown was 4% in all four cylinders. Healthy.
The engine management is Neptune.
I'm running a Full Race Prostreet Stage 3 kit with a T3/T67 turbo, 40mm BOV and WG.
The Problem:I'm going through about a quart of oil per 100 to 150 miles of use. Upon start up, the car idles fine. However there is smoke on start up. Nothing alarming like is billowing, more like a decent cough. The smoke smells like gas and oil. After the car is warmed up and I'm driving around, I will get smoke on deceleration out the exhaust. Also, when accelerating I can faintly smell it, coming from the engine bay (asuming it's from the dump tube). This is just putting around on the roads, never really hitting VTEC and at partial throttles. I have not hit WOT or redline yet, nor will I until this is fixed.
Inspection: I've pulled the charge piping at the Intake Manifold: There is no carbon residue. The breather hole on the valve cover is not discharging any matter. If I take the bung cover off the bung I use for wideband on the down pipe, there is heavy carbon build up.
The spark plugs out of cylinders 1 and 4 have carbon build up on them while 2 and 3 appear to be normal.
The oil feed line for the turbo is not leaking at the block nor at the turbo.
Question:I am reluctant to fully tune this car until this oil consumption problem is erradicated. My question is where in this turbo setup would there be oil consumption or leaking? I feel the compression and leakdown tests have narrowed the problem down to the turbo. I need some solid answers and/or ideas as I am not knowledgable enough in this area.
Any help would so much! - be appreciated.
Currently the new motor has 1000 miles on it. Recently a compression and leak down test were performed. The compression was 210 exactly in all four cylinders. The leakdown was 4% in all four cylinders. Healthy.
The engine management is Neptune.
I'm running a Full Race Prostreet Stage 3 kit with a T3/T67 turbo, 40mm BOV and WG.
The Problem:I'm going through about a quart of oil per 100 to 150 miles of use. Upon start up, the car idles fine. However there is smoke on start up. Nothing alarming like is billowing, more like a decent cough. The smoke smells like gas and oil. After the car is warmed up and I'm driving around, I will get smoke on deceleration out the exhaust. Also, when accelerating I can faintly smell it, coming from the engine bay (asuming it's from the dump tube). This is just putting around on the roads, never really hitting VTEC and at partial throttles. I have not hit WOT or redline yet, nor will I until this is fixed.
Inspection: I've pulled the charge piping at the Intake Manifold: There is no carbon residue. The breather hole on the valve cover is not discharging any matter. If I take the bung cover off the bung I use for wideband on the down pipe, there is heavy carbon build up.
The spark plugs out of cylinders 1 and 4 have carbon build up on them while 2 and 3 appear to be normal.
The oil feed line for the turbo is not leaking at the block nor at the turbo.
Question:I am reluctant to fully tune this car until this oil consumption problem is erradicated. My question is where in this turbo setup would there be oil consumption or leaking? I feel the compression and leakdown tests have narrowed the problem down to the turbo. I need some solid answers and/or ideas as I am not knowledgable enough in this area.
Any help would so much! - be appreciated.
08-29-2005, 05:58 PM
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Re: Turbo + Burning oil + Oil consumption = perplexed and frustrated. Need some help!!! (Haleiwa-Bra
Well, you were certainly blowing smoke when I was following you 
08-29-2005, 05:58 PM
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Re: (planeman01)
what is your catchcan setup like?
Possibly its venting oil back into the intake mani and burning up in the cylinders if its stock pcv setup?
Possibly its venting oil back into the intake mani and burning up in the cylinders if its stock pcv setup?
08-29-2005, 06:04 PM
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Re: (mike1114)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mike1114 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what is your catchcan setup like?
Possibly its venting oil back into the intake mani and burning up in the cylinders if its stock pcv setup?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Good question. My answer is: There is of yet, no catch can installed. My excuse is, I'm still waiting on the Cusco unit that I purchased. Does this help your question or puzzle you?
Possibly its venting oil back into the intake mani and burning up in the cylinders if its stock pcv setup?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Good question. My answer is: There is of yet, no catch can installed. My excuse is, I'm still waiting on the Cusco unit that I purchased. Does this help your question or puzzle you?
08-29-2005, 06:18 PM
#7
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Re: Turbo + Burning oil + Oil consumption = perplexed and frustrated. Need some help!!! (Haleiwa-Bra
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Haleiwa-Brando »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Inspection: I've pulled the charge piping at the Intake Manifold: There is no carbon residue. The breather hole on the valve cover is not discharging any matter. If I take the bung cover off the bung I use for wideband on the down pipe, there is heavy carbon build up.</TD></TR></TABLE>
So, no carbon residue in the charge pipe, but is there oil? I doubt it. If there was, it would sound a lot like a turbo oil seal on the intake side spewing oil.
It could be the exhaust side "I guess". That kind of thing happens, if the turbo is blowing oil out the exhaust oil seal, it would burn a ton of oil but not show up on a spark plug.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Haleiwa-Brando »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The spark plugs out of cylinders 1 and 4 have carbon build up on them while 2 and 3 appear to be normal.
The oil feed line for the turbo is not leaking at the block nor at the turbo.</TD></TR></TABLE>
With that much oil loss burning in the engine, I'd expect obvious oil fouling on a spark plug. That points again, to a turbo oil seal.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Haleiwa-Brando »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Question:I am reluctant to fully tune this car until this oil consumption problem is erradicated. My question is where in this turbo setup would there be oil consumption or leaking? I feel the compression and leakdown tests have narrowed the problem down to the turbo. I need some solid answers and/or ideas as I am not knowledgable enough in this area.</TD></TR></TABLE>
First, I say you tune the bitch and run it hard. But that's just me. You and I both know that there are a lot of different opinions on motor break-ins.
Swap in a different turbo, or a stock exhaust manifold for a day. It's a decent size job, but I can't imagine all that oil not showing up on your spark plugs if it was making it into the engine at all.
What size oil line is running to your turbo? -5AN, -4AN, -3AN?
Here's a dude with the same issue as you.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1161647
Good luck...
So, no carbon residue in the charge pipe, but is there oil? I doubt it. If there was, it would sound a lot like a turbo oil seal on the intake side spewing oil.
It could be the exhaust side "I guess". That kind of thing happens, if the turbo is blowing oil out the exhaust oil seal, it would burn a ton of oil but not show up on a spark plug.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Haleiwa-Brando »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The spark plugs out of cylinders 1 and 4 have carbon build up on them while 2 and 3 appear to be normal.
The oil feed line for the turbo is not leaking at the block nor at the turbo.</TD></TR></TABLE>
With that much oil loss burning in the engine, I'd expect obvious oil fouling on a spark plug. That points again, to a turbo oil seal.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Haleiwa-Brando »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Question:I am reluctant to fully tune this car until this oil consumption problem is erradicated. My question is where in this turbo setup would there be oil consumption or leaking? I feel the compression and leakdown tests have narrowed the problem down to the turbo. I need some solid answers and/or ideas as I am not knowledgable enough in this area.</TD></TR></TABLE>
First, I say you tune the bitch and run it hard. But that's just me. You and I both know that there are a lot of different opinions on motor break-ins.
Swap in a different turbo, or a stock exhaust manifold for a day. It's a decent size job, but I can't imagine all that oil not showing up on your spark plugs if it was making it into the engine at all.
What size oil line is running to your turbo? -5AN, -4AN, -3AN?
Here's a dude with the same issue as you.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1161647
Good luck...
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08-29-2005, 06:33 PM
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Re: Turbo + Burning oil + Oil consumption = perplexed and frustrated. Need some help!!! (Haleiwa-Bra
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
So, no carbon residue in the charge pipe, but is there oil? </TD></TR></TABLE>
There is no oil. I ran my fingers all up in there and they came out clean and dry.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">With that much oil loss burning in the engine, I'd expect obvious oil fouling on a spark plug. That points again, to a turbo oil seal.</TD></TR></TABLE>
There is fouling, but the plugs are not 'wet' as if being coated with wet oil. Just carbon on those two outer plugs.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What size oil line is running to your turbo? -5AN, -4AN, -3AN?</TD></TR></TABLE> It is a -3AN
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by len »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Brandon, do you have pictures of your return line where it comes from the turbo to the oil pan?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Nope Len, I don't. Good to hear from you though. The oil return line is -10AN.
So, no carbon residue in the charge pipe, but is there oil? </TD></TR></TABLE>
There is no oil. I ran my fingers all up in there and they came out clean and dry.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">With that much oil loss burning in the engine, I'd expect obvious oil fouling on a spark plug. That points again, to a turbo oil seal.</TD></TR></TABLE>
There is fouling, but the plugs are not 'wet' as if being coated with wet oil. Just carbon on those two outer plugs.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What size oil line is running to your turbo? -5AN, -4AN, -3AN?</TD></TR></TABLE> It is a -3AN
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by len »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Brandon, do you have pictures of your return line where it comes from the turbo to the oil pan?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Nope Len, I don't. Good to hear from you though. The oil return line is -10AN.
08-29-2005, 06:52 PM
#10
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Re: Turbo + Burning oil + Oil consumption = perplexed and frustrated. Need some help!!! (Haleiwa-Bra
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Haleiwa-Brando »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There is fouling, but the plugs are not 'wet' as if being coated with wet oil. Just carbon on those two outer plugs.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You're not tuned, so I'd expect carbon buildup on plugs. They're never even, #2 and 3 run hotter so they're whiter (and might build up less carbon).
Take a picture. Oil fouled plugs are usually oily.
http://www.bikerenews.com/Stor....html
You're not tuned, so I'd expect carbon buildup on plugs. They're never even, #2 and 3 run hotter so they're whiter (and might build up less carbon).
Take a picture. Oil fouled plugs are usually oily.
http://www.bikerenews.com/Stor....html
08-29-2005, 08:23 PM
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Re: Turbo + Burning oil + Oil consumption = perplexed and frustrated. Need some help!!! (Haleiwa-Bra
well it sounds like there is something wrong with your guides and seals.cause if your decelerating your creating a vacuum in the cylinder witch will suck oil through the guides.and usually when the car sits for a period of time the oil will drip from the valves into the cylinder.the best way to figure out if it is your turbo or your motor is to reinstall a exhaust manifold and see if the problem still exist's.
dumb ? but does your turbo sit above the oil return line.
dumb ? but does your turbo sit above the oil return line.
08-29-2005, 08:31 PM
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Re: Turbo + Burning oil + Oil consumption = perplexed and frustrated. Need some help!!! (Haleiwa-Bra
valve seals....under heavy vacuum it will suck oil past the seals (shifting gears and decel) make sure they put the right seals in ..there are 2 different colors..black i believe is exhaust brown intake...or white i forget
you can also pull the manifolds and stick your finger in there and feel the valve stems and lower guides for heavy oil
you can also pull the manifolds and stick your finger in there and feel the valve stems and lower guides for heavy oil
08-30-2005, 05:31 AM
#13
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Re: Turbo + Burning oil + Oil consumption = perplexed and frustrated. Need some help!!! (Haleiwa-Bra
I'd guess it was the valve guides, or an exhaust side turbo seal. I'll read your post again tonight when I have more time.
08-30-2005, 05:51 AM
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Re: (len)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by len »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Brandon, do you have pictures of your return line where it comes from the turbo to the oil pan?</TD></TR></TABLE>
lol did you take that gif from my post lol.
lol did you take that gif from my post lol.
08-30-2005, 08:43 AM
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Re: Turbo + Burning oil + Oil consumption = perplexed and frustrated. Need some help!!! (Haleiwa-Bra
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Haleiwa-Brando »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
There is fouling, but the plugs are not 'wet' as if being coated with wet oil. Just carbon on those two outer plugs.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
When you pull the plugs, are the pistons wet with oil? Shine a light and you can tell pretty easily. Trust me.
There is fouling, but the plugs are not 'wet' as if being coated with wet oil. Just carbon on those two outer plugs.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
When you pull the plugs, are the pistons wet with oil? Shine a light and you can tell pretty easily. Trust me.
08-30-2005, 08:54 AM
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Re: Turbo + Burning oil + Oil consumption = perplexed and frustrated. Need some help!!! (Haleiwa-Bra
im pretty sure it is not the head that is at fault reason being,before the car blew up it didnt smoke but then he got the shortblock rebuilt and put it back together and it smoked...so they pulled the head off and had it rebuilt by a very reputable local shop with no change in oil consumption...i kinda think it was a bad build on the shortblock because...he failed to mention that the people who built it put the head gasket on backwards and upside down 
luckily the shop who did the install noticed before they started it...but it does make you wonder what else they may have done incorrectly.....i was kinda wondering that if they put the oil control rings on incorrectly if it would show up in a leakdown or compression test..jus a thought...also i doubt it was a bad turbo as it is almost new and definately of excellent quality
luckily the shop who did the install noticed before they started it...but it does make you wonder what else they may have done incorrectly.....i was kinda wondering that if they put the oil control rings on incorrectly if it would show up in a leakdown or compression test..jus a thought...also i doubt it was a bad turbo as it is almost new and definately of excellent quality
08-30-2005, 09:39 AM
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Re: Turbo + Burning oil + Oil consumption = perplexed and frustrated. Need some help!!! (Haleiwa-Bra
a friend of mine had a huge oil consumption problem with his built B18A. 7 quarts in less than 500 miles. Turned out that another friend of mine wasn`t taking his time and put one of the rings in upside down 
08-30-2005, 09:45 AM
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Re: Turbo + Burning oil + Oil consumption = perplexed and frustrated. Need some help!!! (Haleiwa-Bra
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jonsswapshop »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well it sounds like there is something wrong with your guides and seals..</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dr Pooface »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'd guess it was the valve guides, .</TD></TR></TABLE>
thats it..probally inatalled poorly......
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dr Pooface »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'd guess it was the valve guides, .</TD></TR></TABLE>
thats it..probally inatalled poorly......
08-30-2005, 10:07 AM
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Re: Turbo + Burning oil + Oil consumption = perplexed and frustrated. Need some help!!! (Haleiwa-Bra
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by m R g S r »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
thats it..probally inatalled poorly......</TD></TR></TABLE>i would be very suprised the head was in perfect condition before the motor was built but upon starting the engine and seeing the smoke it was pulled and rebuilt by a very knowledgible and reputable local shop jus to eliminate that as a possibility
thats it..probally inatalled poorly......</TD></TR></TABLE>i would be very suprised
the head was in perfect condition before the motor was built but upon starting the engine and seeing the smoke it was pulled and rebuilt by a very knowledgible and reputable local shop jus to eliminate that as a possibility
08-30-2005, 02:52 PM
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Re: Turbo + Burning oil + Oil consumption = perplexed and frustrated. Need some help!!! (Haleiwa-Bra
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by D@nnY »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">valve seals....under heavy vacuum it will suck oil past the seals (shifting gears and decel) make sure they put the right seals in ..there are 2 different colors..black i believe is exhaust brown intake...or white i forget </TD></TR></TABLE>
It's White for Intake and Black for Exhaust. It's real easy to remember if you associate it with "clean" air enters and "dirty" air exits.
I wanted to see where the oil return line was connected. I remember long ago running into a problem when I installed a turbo kit on a friend's car and didn't pay too much attention to the return line which caused the oil to back up and eventually leak through the seals because it couldn't return fast enough.
Just a suggestion of course. It's nice to hear from you too Brandon. Hope all is well other than this.
</TD></TR></TABLE>It's White for Intake and Black for Exhaust. It's real easy to remember if you associate it with "clean" air enters and "dirty" air exits.
I wanted to see where the oil return line was connected. I remember long ago running into a problem when I installed a turbo kit on a friend's car and didn't pay too much attention to the return line which caused the oil to back up and eventually leak through the seals because it couldn't return fast enough.
Just a suggestion of course. It's nice to hear from you too Brandon. Hope all is well other than this.
08-30-2005, 05:54 PM
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Re: Turbo + Burning oil + Oil consumption = perplexed and frustrated. Need some help!!! (Haleiwa-Bra
I agree with Reactiondc2 on this one. The numbers show that the bottom end is perfect. Also that I purposely pulled the head and had it totally reworked for 'just in case' purposes.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ProjectDarkBlack »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Turned out that another friend of mine wasn`t taking his time and put one of the rings in upside down. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Would this show up in a compression test or leakdown test?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ProjectDarkBlack »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Turned out that another friend of mine wasn`t taking his time and put one of the rings in upside down. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Would this show up in a compression test or leakdown test?
08-30-2005, 07:13 PM
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Re: Turbo + Burning oil + Oil consumption = perplexed and frustrated. Need some help!!! (Haleiwa-Bra
Would this show up in a compression test or leakdown test?[/QUOTE]
The oil rings dont matter they can go either way. the top 2 rings however have an up and down.
If the middle ring is on upside down it will not scrape oil properly....they have a bevel that has to be pointed in the correct direction and i dont thinkit will show on a compresion test... however I dont think this is the problem as it would be more evident under load not under decel
i wouldnt be looking a tthe bottom end if its doing it under decel
The oil rings dont matter they can go either way. the top 2 rings however have an up and down.
If the middle ring is on upside down it will not scrape oil properly....they have a bevel that has to be pointed in the correct direction and i dont thinkit will show on a compresion test... however I dont think this is the problem as it would be more evident under load not under decel
i wouldnt be looking a tthe bottom end if its doing it under decel
08-30-2005, 09:03 PM
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Re: Turbo + Burning oil + Oil consumption = perplexed and frustrated. Need some help!!! (Haleiwa-Bra
i wasd jus wondering if they didnt stagger the gaps or maybe they jus set the ring end gaps to high on the lower rings...im pretty sure from what i heard that it is smoking on acceleration as well...if it was me i would drive it hard(im a hard break in guy) and if the motor still smoked then pull it apart for an inspection...also i was jus wondering if you ever pulled the charge piping off and looked into the intake mani to see if there was any oil in there
08-30-2005, 09:57 PM
#24
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Re: Turbo + Burning oil + Oil consumption = perplexed and frustrated. Need some help!!! (Haleiwa-Bra
you check the seal on the crank case box thats on the back of hte block?
there is a lil o ring that can cause oil to go into the box. but based on how much oil you are loosing i doubt thats the problem
there is a lil o ring that can cause oil to go into the box. but based on how much oil you are loosing i doubt thats the problem
08-31-2005, 04:34 AM
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Re: Turbo + Burning oil + Oil consumption = perplexed and frustrated. Need some help!!! (Haleiwa-Bra
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rob Dizzle »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Good question. My answer is: There is of yet, no catch can installed. My excuse is, I'm still waiting on the Cusco unit that I purchased. Does this help your question or puzzle you?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
So are you running the standard set up??? I would look at this first if thats the case as yo will be pressurizing the crank case on boost and the oil on deceleration could just be what in the cylinders and exhaust burning up.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
So are you running the standard set up??? I would look at this first if thats the case as yo will be pressurizing the crank case on boost and the oil on deceleration could just be what in the cylinders and exhaust burning up.