RTE117

I've been looking into various ways to go about tuning my car when it's done.. (Hondata, Uberdata w/ WB, VAFC/EGT, etc).. And I remember my DSM friend talking about using a logger to tune for knock and dismissing the use of a dyno, if I switch to an OBDI ECU, could I use a WB w/ datalogging capability or something similiar to what the DSM guys use? Sorry for the vague question I'm still trying to learn about it.

g2turbo

I think most people run without a knock sensor. I run hondata and have the sensor disabled. As long as the car is tuned properly in the first place, knock should not be an issue.

RTE117

I see you're from Cincy as well.. Where did you get Hondata tuned? Or did you do it yourself w/ a WB on a shop dyno?

g2turbo

Me and a few of my friends get our hondata tuned at payn technologies in Michigan. Its a far drive but well worth it. Send me a IM if you want any more info. CHRIS

boosted_dc2

allot of people tune their cars themselfs with a datalogger and wideband. if you fel comfortable doing it yourself then go for it.

Landon

RTE117

If I choose WB and logging, how would I know the best AF to tune for with a logger, it would have to be dyno tuned correct? edit.. Why I was wondering was because my DSM friend talks about how easy it is to tune for knock with his pocketlogger!

hpfsi

DSM guys are ballsy imo - I too have seen many tuning their cars from knock logs. I could never rely so heavily on a sensor that is so indefinite. That is very risky and NOT a proper way to tune fuel/ignition. I have spent many hours studying knock logs with the EMS, and with a wideband o2 I was able to make some very significant timing and fuel changes without invoking any sort of change in the knock logs. Go with a Hondata or another programmable setup and you'll thank yourself time and time again once you get it tuned properly.

danl

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hpfsi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">DSM guys are ballsy imo - I too have seen many tuning their cars from knock logs. I could never rely so heavily on a sensor that is so indefinite. That is very risky and NOT a proper way to tune fuel/ignition. I have spent many hours studying knock logs with the EMS, and with a wideband o2 I was able to make some very significant timing and fuel changes without invoking any sort of change in the knock logs. Go with a Hondata or another programmable setup and you'll thank yourself time and time again once you get it tuned properly. </TD></TR></TABLE>


Meah, I disagree with about everything.

hpfsi

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by danl &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


Meah, I disagree with about everything.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Explain why tuning off a knock sensor is the proper way to tune fuel and ignition maps. I didn't say it couldn't be done, but why risk it? If you have a knock sensor that can give you some definite feedback on what is going on inside the combustion chamber then by all means take it into account while tuning. You will never catch me tuning off it exclusively though

danl

HOw do you tune your timing with a wideband? You don't.

What is the point of runing a wideband? To obtain the proper air/fuel ratio. Why does one want the proper air/fuel ratio? People monitor a/f ratio to make power and to indirectly try to keep detonation at bay.

It all seems to come back to a detonation or preignition factor when tuning. A wideband is a great tool. You can docuement at what a/f ratio a motor seems to make the best power. However, it does not tell you if your are detonating. The wideband also does nothing for ignition tuning.

A lot of people don't like knock sensors because they can't properly implement one into their application to provide usefull real world data. In the end though, if you aren't detonating or preigniting, then you aren't hurting your motor. That is not to say that the knock sensor is the only tool used for tuning, but it provides some valuable data that other tools can not.

I tune off knock. Its not the recommended way, but for me its the cheap way. I guess I also like living on the edge. My car I guess has been on the dangerous edge for over 14 years and 130,000 turbocharged miles.

Thats not to say that I couldn't benefit from a wideband however.

boosted_dc2

dsms for some reason i feel are completey not related to hondas. yea there bolth engines and ae the same in theory but i feel that a factory turbocharged engine can handle abuse 100 times better than the opposite. ive seen my buddys eclipse burry the boost guage at 30+ psi on numerous occasions and has had no problems. think about what you have to do to a honda motor to run that kind of boost. that is why a dsm can be tuned "half assed" for lack of better terms IMO. i respect dsm's power and am not knocking (no punn intended) on dsms i just think that they are a different breed and hondas have to have more care taken with them when tunning.

Landon

danl

That is correct for the most part, but you have to realize why. THe majority of honda motors are open deck alumiumn block. The 4g63 is a closed deck iron block. However, you can still break a 4g63 and you do have to watch detonation. The cool thing about DSM's is that you don't have a choice, the ecu will pull timing if you overboost, saving the motor most of the time and limiting the most harmfull aspect of overboosting, preignition of an extremly hot charge temp. I've done quarter mile passes with the knock sensor maxed out and the ecu was pulling LOTS of timing (4 degrees total advance). I've also accidently boosted over 30 psi, and again the ECU pulled a LOT of timing to save the party for another day.

How does this relate to hondas? Well detonation and preignition will kill anything, even a 4g63. Open deck honda motors really hate detonation and preignition, so its even more important. When I'm tuning my friends turbo crx, detonation is the enemy above all else.

Same is true with the rotary guys. THey can handle a LOT of power, but even the slightest amounts of detonation and it causes serious problems.

MikeMAN

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by danl &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That is correct for the most part, but you have to realize why. THe majority of honda motors are open deck alumiumn block. The 4g63 is a closed deck iron block. However, you can still break a 4g63 and you do have to watch detonation. The cool thing about DSM's is that you don't have a choice, the ecu will pull timing if you overboost, saving the motor most of the time and limiting the most harmfull aspect of overboosting, preignition of an extremly hot charge temp. I've done quarter mile passes with the knock sensor maxed out and the ecu was pulling LOTS of timing (4 degrees total advance). I've also accidently boosted over 30 psi, and again the ECU pulled a LOT of timing to save the party for another day.

How does this relate to hondas? Well detonation and preignition will kill anything, even a 4g63. Open deck honda motors really hate detonation and preignition, so its even more important. When I'm tuning my friends turbo crx, detonation is the enemy above all else.

Same is true with the rotary guys. THey can handle a LOT of power, but even the slightest amounts of detonation and it causes serious problems.</TD></TR></TABLE>

great very informative post from a good DSM FELLER!!!! Our open decks/sleeves really aren't the issues, but more or less the ringlands on the pistons, they leave pretty much NO room for error or ANY detonation.

thanks for the post!
mike

danl

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MikeMAN &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

great very informative post from a good DSM FELLER!!!! Our open decks/sleeves really aren't the issues, but more or less the ringlands on the pistons, they leave pretty much NO room for error or ANY detonation.

thanks for the post!
mike</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, I'm assuming that the pistons, rods, and rings are being replaced with more turbo friendly units. Stock, yeah, top ringlands go poof quickly.

hpfsi

Sorry for my difference of opinion danl - I don't doubt that you have had much success with your methods. I have a honda and I have found that it is better to take what the knock sensor says very lightly. Our cars weren't turbo'd from the factory and I have never found my honda knock sensors to be particularly reliable enough to tune off of. I mentioned the wideband because I was relating that to accurately inducing lean situations that would make an engine more sensitive to detonation, not because you tune your timing from it. So basically exactly the same thing you ended up saying.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by danl &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What is the point of runing a wideband? To obtain the proper air/fuel ratio. Why does one want the proper air/fuel ratio? People monitor a/f ratio to make power and to indirectly try to keep detonation at bay.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Tuning your timing is difficult without pressure sensing spark plugs, and so basically it comes down to how effectively you can listen to the combustion process. IDriveAHonda started this thread, not IDriveADsm. No disrespect danl, but I hate it when people make a point of disagreeing rather than just contributing.

I have heard scary amounts of preignition and even detonation without an unusual peep showing up on the knock logs. Thats why I just don't trust honda knock sensors that much (as much as a dsm owner that is).

danl

So you have an improperly implemented knock sensing system, no wonder you don't like it. I stated that above.

qksl2

No, they are smart. Tuning w/ a knock sensor is to timing what tuning with a WB02 is to fuel. The best stand alones use a knock threshhold to control timing in a closed loop fasion. While unplugging the knock sensor on a hondata works. that says nothing about the potential for a better tune using the knock sensor.

Ian

Bailhatch

Anyone use any listening devices to detect knock? I have a Steelman chassis ear that lets you clamp mics to the block, or wherever you want, and listen to an amplified signal through headphones. I haven't had the ***** to add timing so I can hear what knock sounds like. Some people say the human ear might be a viable signal processor for this purpose.

This type of tool is pretty cheap (about $100) and I suppose that if you have this and a WB you could do some decent street tuning.

D16A6Turbo

adding an aftermarket knock sensor like the J&S safeguard is the best way to guard yourself against detonation...a wideband simply tells you about A/F ratios...but, YOU CAN STILL DETONATE W/ PERFECT A/F RATIOS...the best way to tune would be to have both...

hpfsi

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bailhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Anyone use any listening devices to detect knock? I have a Steelman chassis ear that lets you clamp mics to the block, or wherever you want, and listen to an amplified signal through headphones. I haven't had the ***** to add timing so I can hear what knock sounds like. Some people say the human ear might be a viable signal processor for this purpose.

This type of tool is pretty cheap (about $100) and I suppose that if you have this and a WB you could do some decent street tuning.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is actually what I'll be using to tune the engine I am currently building.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by danl &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So you have an improperly implemented knock sensing system, no wonder you don't like it. I stated that above.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Then help me implement it please. I can't seem to get any definitive readings from my honda knock sensor. Any suggestions? (try another sensor, different location, etc)



Modified by hpfsi at 10:12 PM 3/7/2004

GTPcrew

Dsm's use a MAF sensor. It makes things alot easier. The ecu will also pull up to 40 degrees of timing when it sees knock. It gives you alot of protection when you mess up.

Bailhatch

[QUOTE=hpfsi]

This is actually what I'll be using to tune the engine I am currently building.

QUOTE]

Have you used one before? right now I just listen for pinging via naked ear and call it good if it sounds clean under a heavy load The sound coming through the chassis ear is a little confusing and at higher rpms it gets pretty clattery on my old abused motor

danl

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bailhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">[QUOTE=hpfsi]

This is actually what I'll be using to tune the engine I am currently building.

QUOTE]

Have you used one before? right now I just listen for pinging via naked ear and call it good if it sounds clean under a heavy load The sound coming through the chassis ear is a little confusing and at higher rpms it gets pretty clattery on my old abused motor</TD></TR></TABLE>

Do you mean naked ear with no amplifier device?

Case being, is that I have maxed out the knock sensor scale on my DSM, however I've never heard any audible pinging inside the car, even back when I was running the stock exhaust. If you can audibly hear detonation inside the car with the naked ear, well then no wonder stuff blows up.

Full-Race Javier

tru ^
if you can hear it with you naked ear, imagine whats going while the engine is running

try this. listen to your engine with your naked ear while its idling. then grab a broomstick or pipe or something....(ghetto mechanics stethoscope). while its idling, place one end on the valve cover and hold the other with your hand on your ear. what do you hear that you couldnt hear before? knock sensors usually hear knock that you cant and some are able to prevent damage

Bailhatch

Ya I meant just normally audible pinging. I do realize there can be lots of bad stuff happening before you can hear it inside the car. I just pull a little extra timing and cross my fingers. I have been boosted on a 130k mile Z6 for almost 9000 miles of constant beating. Guess I'm lucky just like all the people that run FMUs, just shooting in the dark is scary when it comes to fuel and ign managment.

This is exactly why I am asking about the Chassis ear, which is just an electronic broom stick you can use while your driving.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Full-Race Javier &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
while its idling, place one end on the valve cover and hold the other with your hand on your ear. what do you hear that you couldnt hear before? </TD></TR></TABLE>

So i put on the headphones and now I'm asking you guys exactly what you just asked me...What am I hearing that I coulden't before? Does knock have sound that someone could describe? I have heard pinging described as a metallic warbeling (resonating sleeves i think) and I think preignition is like a sharp percussive sound. I'de love to hear some recordings of knock made from a Chassis ear or similar.