slowata

OK, little info again. It's already been established that the missing link/FMU/AFC stuff is junk, ditch it and run standalone. Problem is, it's a customer car, so what goes on it isn't up to me...unfortunetely.

The car is a 2001 Prelude, built and sleeved engine, stock ECU. DRAG turbo kit, including the BLOX missing link, Deltagate, and FMU. In addition, the car has an AFC NEO. I'm trying to think of what injectors are on the car...I want to say 550's, but I'm not sure.

We've informed the customer that in order to run the ~20psi that he's wanting, his current fueling setup won't cut it and that he really needs to run some real management, weather it be Crome, Neptune, Hondata, AEM, whatever. Money seems to be the issue, I haven't personally spoken to him, I'm just going by what my service manager has told me.

So I figure we'd at least try and tune it to 9-10psi, which the missing link should (hopefully) be able to handle.

However, even on partial-throttle runs where I'm seeing less than 10psi, the car leans out something fierce. Even with the AFC's high-throttle correction maxed out, around 4,000rpm things get bad.

The settings on the AFC (if I can remember off of the top of my head) are low-throttle 10%, high-throttle 40%, 4cyl, increasing voltage TPS, pressure-type air sensor.

If anyone with any experience on this can chime in, it'd be highly appreciated, I just want to get this damn thing tuned to 10psi max.

Please, don't say "ditch the setup and get a real EMS" because I can't! Trust me, I'd love to, but I can't :thumbsdown:

93CX

Built and sleeved engine.. on an AFC. That poor kid

preludestud11

iTrader: (1)

hahah, built and sleeved engine, and he cant afford 200$ for a p28 with chrome on it. Sounds like he is washing his money down the drain. If i were in your shoes i would tell the customer that you will not tune the car with his improper setup. Becuase when it fails he is going to blame you for it.

DfwBB6

wow

slowata

Tell me about it, extremely frustrating. Money was obviously spent on the car...it has a paintjob that, although not very umm...JDM, probably cost a grip. COMPLETE paint job...as in door jams, inside gas fill lid, engine bay, the works. The entire car is very clean, some good work was done.

Unfortunately, said owner doesn't seem to know much about what he has, and trying to explain to him why he needs proper EMS does little good.

That's why I was hoping someone had some insight as to what our issues here are with the tune. I'm about sick of trying to screw with it, and I'm not going to be the one to blame for popping an expensive engine. I'm not touching it anymore.

njn63

Just tell him you'll tune it to 6 psi with the AFC or 20 psi with the standalone, his choice

DfwBB6

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slowata &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Tell me about it, extremely frustrating. Money was obviously spent on the car...it has a paintjob that, although not very umm...JDM, probably cost a grip. COMPLETE paint job...as in door jams, inside gas fill lid, engine bay, the works. The entire car is very clean, some good work was done.

Unfortunately, said owner doesn't seem to know much about what he has, and trying to explain to him why he needs proper EMS does little good.

That's why I was hoping someone had some insight as to what our issues here are with the tune. I'm about sick of trying to screw with it, and I'm not going to be the one to blame for popping an expensive engine. I'm not touching it anymore.</TD></TR></TABLE>

sit the guy down break it down to him does he wanna cheap out now and pay later or get a proper EMS and get longevity

agrn93ls

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slowata &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Tell me about it, extremely frustrating. Money was obviously spent on the car...it has a paintjob that, although not very umm...JDM, probably cost a grip. COMPLETE paint job...as in door jams, inside gas fill lid, engine bay, the works. The entire car is very clean, some good work was done.

Unfortunately, said owner doesn't seem to know much about what he has, and trying to explain to him why he needs proper EMS does little good.

That's why I was hoping someone had some insight as to what our issues here are with the tune. I'm about sick of trying to screw with it, and I'm not going to be the one to blame for popping an expensive engine. I'm not touching it anymore.</TD></TR></TABLE>




tell the kid your not putting your good name (well assuming its good ) on the line for his stupid choice better to lose profit from one tune than loose business cause a jackass that blew his motor and blames you.

tell him you do it right or not at all and that is how your company does business. it will pay off in the end.

SD_Lurker

iTrader: (4)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by agrn93ls &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

tell the kid your not putting your good name (well assuming its good ) on the line for his stupid choice better to lose profit from one tune than loose business cause a jackass that blew his motor and blames you.

tell him you do it right or not at all and that is how your company does business. it will pay off in the end.</TD></TR></TABLE>

that pretty much sums it up. Also, assure him that you are not just trying to get him to spend money in your shop.

93supercoupe

if he wanted to run 20psi and a VAFC, i would tell him to leave.

Hes gonna be blaming u when it blows.

sq_creations

The problem is the missing link. You want to run the vafc down to around -40 at all rpms . and let the map sensor see boost. set the low throttle to 98 and high to 99. that should get you going. I was in the same situation with customer car.

here is a link to help - http://www.geocities.com/therm....html


Modified by sq_creations at 10:54 PM 6/15/2007

slowata

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sq_creations &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The problem is the missing link. You want to run the vafc down to around -40 at all rpms . and let the map sensor see boost. set the low throttle to 98 and high to 99. that should get you going. I was in the same situation with customer. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Wait...that's a little confusing to me. The missing link is a one-way/check valve that lets the MAP sensor see vacuum, but as soon as the manifold sees positive pressure, it blocks the MAP sensor from seeing it....correct?

So, if I were to crank the correction on the AFC down to -40 when I'm already going super lean at +50, wouldn't that be....bad?

*edit* Oh ok, so pull the missing link...hmm...might give it a shot


Modified by slowata at 8:33 AM 6/16/2007

Drkaccrd

I think for the afcs ( atleast the older versions) the max that can be run injector wise are 440s. If the same is true for the neos that might be the tunning your into.

slowata

Tell me about it, extremely frustrating. Money was obviously spent on the car...it has a paintjob that, although not very umm...JDM, probably cost a grip. COMPLETE paint job...as in door jams, inside gas fill lid, engine bay, the works. The entire car is very clean, some good work was done.

Unfortunately, said owner doesn't seem to know much about what he has, and trying to explain to him why he needs proper EMS does little good.

That's why I was hoping someone had some insight as to what our issues here are with the tune. I'm about sick of trying to screw with it, and I'm not going to be the one to blame for popping an expensive engine. I'm not touching it anymore.

slowata

Will be trying the non-missing link idea today, probably. If I'm successful, might post up a dyno graph for *****'n'giggles.

Pullig

well i know your not sposed to run the FMU with the hack maybe thats messing you up ... remove it and the missing link ..... run 450cc 550s may work but anyways pull -40 fuel out go from there

93CX

Oops.. I totally missed the part where you said you were using the FMU as well. Remove that and you will have MUCH better luck getting the **** running. Still needs real EMS though.

slowata

We had the FMU pulled for a while with no luck, but we were still running the missing link.

So yesterday, I pulled the missing link from the car, zeroed out the AFC, and started anew (FMU is still hooked up). I was able to do a complete pull, but I'm running something like +43 fuel from like 4000rpm or so to redline. I also now have a CEL for MAP voltage too high, go figure...

Question: will MAP voltage too high code affect the way the car runs in any way, such as going into a limp mode or something?

Thanks

Oh yeah...I think we have other issues, too, possibly timing, possibly his small-diameter downpipe....so far, the numbers I'm getting are what you'd expect from a stock H22A with intake and exhaust...as in...170-180 whp

Finland

first of all, don't run the FMU and AFC simultaneously, you have to pick one, or the other.

Trust me about 6 years ago I played with that garbage for about a year.

Second: good luck trying to get the car to even idle with 550cc injectors and AFC

Third: throw the missing link back into your toolbox and read the link the other guy posted

Fourth: Good luck..and tell the customer to wear gloves because his fingers are going to be sore from constantly making adjustments

Fifth: Get your service manager some training...I thought afcs and missing links were forgotten about 5 years ago

slowata

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Speed Industry &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">first of all, don't run the FMU and AFC simultaneously, you have to pick one, or the other.

Trust me about 6 years ago I played with that garbage for about a year.

Second: good luck trying to get the car to even idle with 550cc injectors and AFC

Third: throw the missing link back into your toolbox and read the link the other guy posted

Fourth: Good luck..and tell the customer to wear gloves because his fingers are going to be sore from constantly making adjustments

Fifth: Get your service manager some training...I thought afcs and missing links were forgotten about 5 years ago </TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks for the advice

I'll try again without the FMU but with the AFC.

The car actually idles quite fine, which makes me wonder if there really are 550cc injectors installed. The car came to us as-is, minus the AFC and 3" catback, which we installed. The AFC was installed as per customer's wishes. The only mistake my service manager has made so far is that he has not yet told the guy straight-up to ditch his current fuel setup

What's making me actually wonder even more about the injectors, is the fact that I have to add so much damn fuel across the board to get it to stay relatively *safe* If the injectors were, say, stock, things would make more sense.

Anyway, I really appreciate all of the feedback I've been receiving from H-T members. I must say, still the best forum I've found to date, and I've been on a lot!

2redstars

that whole setup doesnt make sense. you need to figure out what injectors he actually has. that would help alot. if he does have 550's, then use the missing link(make sure its hooked up right) to keep the ecu from seeing positive pressure. ditch the fmu. then tune the afc to the positive until you get some results.

the afc hack is used on low psi setups(below 1bar) and you use alot bigger inj than you need, so you then tune to the negative, which keeps the ecu from seeing positive pressure.

so you need to do one or the other, not both.

oh yeah, and tell him to get some real engine management.

agrn93ls

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slowata &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We had the FMU pulled for a while with no luck, but we were still running the missing link.

So yesterday, I pulled the missing link from the car, zeroed out the AFC, and started anew (FMU is still hooked up). I was able to do a complete pull, but I'm running something like +43 fuel from like 4000rpm or so to redline. I also now have a CEL for MAP voltage too high, go figure...

Question: will MAP voltage too high code affect the way the car runs in any way, such as going into a limp mode or something?

Thanks

Oh yeah...I think we have other issues, too, possibly timing, possibly his small-diameter downpipe....so far, the numbers I'm getting are what you'd expect from a stock H22A with intake and exhaust...as in...170-180 whp </TD></TR></TABLE>

REALLY REALLY starting to sound like he has stock or small injectors.

if you have to run the FMU and +43 it would seem something is awry with fuel supply or injectors ESPECIALLY if it idles fine

this is a recipe for disaster. does your service manager grasp whats going on here?

slowata

OK, so I just had a look at the car...RC 440 injectors. So injectors are pretty much ruled out as being the problem.

Haven't had a chance to put the car back on the dyno, had an EVO IX on there most of the morning. 262whp/260wtq SAE, all it had was a test pipe, think they were messing around with Open Port some.

Will post up new findings as they come

ATYPR

Just do yourself a favor and send the guy to a local shop that works on Hondas like RLZ.

slowata

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FUCATYPR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just do yourself a favor and send the guy to a local shop that works on Hondas like RLZ.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Trust me, that's what I've been wanting to do from the get-go. If it were up to me, that's what would have happened. Unfortunetely, it's not up to me, so I'm just trying to work around my limited options.