Treadstone Intercooler
12-13-2015, 02:15 PM
#1
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Treadstone Intercooler
HI, Guys. Long story short while at the shop I work, a client backed up with a big *** Ford van, smashed my bumper cover and intercooler (I had no bumper support).
I had a CX 29x9x3 now totally broke.
The client is paying the repair. I already bought the bumper cover and support!!
I'm indecisive from the TR6 (400hp) or TR8 (500hp). My car have 428whp with only a slow bump in power when replace the turbo and clean the tune after 6 years since I build it. So no apply room for grow, it stay that way.
what is the better choice? The price is only $20.00 difference between the two, being the TR6 more expensive.
I had a CX 29x9x3 now totally broke.
The client is paying the repair. I already bought the bumper cover and support!!
I'm indecisive from the TR6 (400hp) or TR8 (500hp). My car have 428whp with only a slow bump in power when replace the turbo and clean the tune after 6 years since I build it. So no apply room for grow, it stay that way.
what is the better choice? The price is only $20.00 difference between the two, being the TR6 more expensive.
12-14-2015, 05:37 AM
#6
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Treadstone Intercooler
OP: I run a TR11 and love it. Treadstone intercoolers are very well made and cool great at their price point.
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12-14-2015, 09:22 AM
#8
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Treadstone Intercooler
Well their is no doubt its a mid level intercooler. My point was that its a nice upgrade from your typical Ebay offering.
12-14-2015, 12:53 PM
#11
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Treadstone Intercooler
Some hard data on core efficiency would be nice. Seems they rate close to same power capability vs size wise, with the tread stone usually just being .5" thicker then the Garrett. Mine is pretty old (one of their originals). I don't know how good it is compared to anything else. I very well might upgrade if I can save some more space running a smaller but more efficient core, and help airflow into engine.
12-14-2015, 03:27 PM
#12
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Re: Treadstone Intercooler
The Treadstone cores are an improvement over the eBay cores and most of the Mishimoto offerings (from what I've seen personally the eBay and Mishi cores are the same thing). However available documentation for each shows that they all have fairly high pressure drops above 15psi. What bugs me the most is even their largest cores have big pressure drops.
They definitely aren't as nice as the PWR, Bell, and Garrett cores though. However if you know where to look they aren't that expensive. If you ever plan on making more power I would strongly suggest you spend the extra money on a quality intercooler. They are much more efficient in terms of airflow capacity/restriction, temperature reduction, and pressure drop. Not to mention either of these 3 brands always hold their resale value and are very durable. I've had one PWR intercooler for 10 years and you'd never guess it was that old by looking at it.
I've personally never used anything other than quality cores. Like I said I've had my big PWR (12x24x3) for 10 years that will be going on its 3rd car shortly and I have a smaller (8x20x3) that I'll most likely be using on my SVT Focus if I don't go air to water. I'll be using a Garrett or Bell core on my other 2 projects.
Just to give you an idea back in 06 when I bought my SR S13 it came with your typical large core with offset 3" inlet/outlet eBay intercooler. While it was better than no intercooler at all it was far from ideal. Even at 14-15psi on a T25 with minimal piping length and bends it did a poor job of heat exchange and had a slightly elevated pressure drop. I put my big PWR in its place and it was a night and day difference. Less pressure drop, higher temp reduction, lower pressure drop and so on. It even improved throttle response.
The biggest issue with the budget intercooler a is their end tank design. In the case of your typical eBay intercooler the end tanks were very small in overall volume and having the inlet and outlet located on one side of the core results in even poorer performance.
When the inlet/outlet is on one side like that it prevents even airflow distribution across the core and effectively cuts the core surface area in half. You wind up with the bulk of the airflow trying to travel through the core area directly inline with the inlet, whatever airflow can't pass through that area has to make a 90* turn and travel up the small end tank until it makes another 90* turn and travels through the core. Then on the outlet end that air has to make 2 more 90* turns to exit the end tank.
What winds up happening is the core heatsoaks in the area directly inline with the inlet/outlet and that kills what little bit of efficiency the core had in the first place. So obviously you'll see an increase in IATs. The other issue that happens with the remainder of the air having to turn and snake it's way to other areas of the core is a much higher pressure drop and a reduction in airflow capacity.
If you don't believe me then the next time you're on the dyno or do a sustained highway pull stop and put your hand on the front of the intercooler. You'll notice the area between the inlet/outlet is considerably hotter than the rest of the core. You could minimize this by having centered end tanks welded on but by the time you pay to do that you could have purchased a quality intercooler.
The biggest drawback to these budget cores other than their flow limitations is their pressure drop. If you run high pressures (15+) then you'll typically see at least a 2psi difference across the core which only increases with pressure. It doesn't sound like a lot but that pressure difference causes the tubocharger to work harder which means higher compressor outlet temps and ultimately higher IATs due to core heatsoak. Depending on the capabilities of your turbocharger and where you are at in terms of its limit that extra pressure could put you at or beyond its capabilities.
Now all intercoolers have some degree of pressure drop as airflow and pressure increase, that is inherent in their operation because cooler air is more dense and has less volume. Manufacturers try to balance pressure drop with airflow/heat exchange. It's possible to design a core that has the highest reduction in air temps but it's design would result in a crazy high pressure drop. Conversely it's possible to design a core with a minimal pressure drop but then it would have virtually no effect on reducing air temperatures. This is why you see most companies offer one of two designs: tube and fin or bar and plate (I won't get into that here). However the Chinese companies use whatever design is cheapest and typically their pressure drop is solely from a **** poor core design which is why you see most of them have a low airflow rating and high pressure drops. The core itself is so restrictive that as airflow and pressure increase so does restriction.
Whatever you decide on make sure the intercooler you pick has the inlet and outlet centered in the middle of the core and has adequate sized end tanks. If you can tig weld or know someone who can you can save a good bit of money on a quality intercooler by buying just the core with no endtanks and fabricate your own or buy a pre-cast piece and weld that on. Go look at atpturbo.com to see what I'm talking about.
Sometimes you can find Garrett, Bell, and PWR cores on eBay fairly cheap. That's where I found my small PWR brand new without endtanks for like 125 dollars. Bell does have fairly affordable cores to begin with. Google bell intercoolers and then go on their site and look at their air to air catalog. They give you dimensions, flow ratings, pressure drop, and price. They also have vertical or horizontal flow air to air cores and air to water cores. None of them have endtanks (and Bell gets pricey if they build them) but again if you buy a popular size then other companies will have cast endtanks you can weld on.
The other main benefit that most never consider is that the high efficiency cores offered by Garrett, Bell, and PWR are so efficient compared to the Chinese cores that you can run a much smaller core than you would need to with the Chinese cores. This is especially true with the vertical flow cores from Bell. You can run a vertical core that is literally half the size of a horizontal flow core with the same flow limits. The cost to fabricate endtanks for vertical cores will be about the same as a horizontal core. While the core might be dimensionally smaller it still takes a fair amount of material however cast endtanks are available for a large number of vertical cores as well. Treadstone offers them and you can find a good number on eBay.
Being able to run a smaller core obviously means you save money over a larger one. The smaller core means less weight (big thing if you race competitively), easier to fit which is especially useful on space limited setups, and depending on the height of the core and how it's mounted the radiator will get more ambient temperature airflow which is never a bad thing.
I strongly urge you to price out the options from the 3 companies I listed, especially in regards to Bell as their pricing has come way down in recent years and I dare say their quality exceeds Garrett in a few ways. PWR is still fairly pricey from what I can remember as I haven't checked their pricing in some time. If you get a core directly from PWR the shipping will be crazy high since they are based in Austrailia and shipping fees aren't regulated like here with the USPS if you go PWR get it from a reseller that isn't in Austrailia.
If you feel like revising your piping slightly I encourage you to look into a vertical flow core. Even if you get a vertical core from Treadstone it's still an improvement over their horizontal core and the other budget horizontal core options. I'll be using a vertical core on at least two of my high power "competition" setups.
And here I thought "I won't write a huge reply" lol.
They definitely aren't as nice as the PWR, Bell, and Garrett cores though. However if you know where to look they aren't that expensive. If you ever plan on making more power I would strongly suggest you spend the extra money on a quality intercooler. They are much more efficient in terms of airflow capacity/restriction, temperature reduction, and pressure drop. Not to mention either of these 3 brands always hold their resale value and are very durable. I've had one PWR intercooler for 10 years and you'd never guess it was that old by looking at it.
I've personally never used anything other than quality cores. Like I said I've had my big PWR (12x24x3) for 10 years that will be going on its 3rd car shortly and I have a smaller (8x20x3) that I'll most likely be using on my SVT Focus if I don't go air to water. I'll be using a Garrett or Bell core on my other 2 projects.
Just to give you an idea back in 06 when I bought my SR S13 it came with your typical large core with offset 3" inlet/outlet eBay intercooler. While it was better than no intercooler at all it was far from ideal. Even at 14-15psi on a T25 with minimal piping length and bends it did a poor job of heat exchange and had a slightly elevated pressure drop. I put my big PWR in its place and it was a night and day difference. Less pressure drop, higher temp reduction, lower pressure drop and so on. It even improved throttle response.
The biggest issue with the budget intercooler a is their end tank design. In the case of your typical eBay intercooler the end tanks were very small in overall volume and having the inlet and outlet located on one side of the core results in even poorer performance.
When the inlet/outlet is on one side like that it prevents even airflow distribution across the core and effectively cuts the core surface area in half. You wind up with the bulk of the airflow trying to travel through the core area directly inline with the inlet, whatever airflow can't pass through that area has to make a 90* turn and travel up the small end tank until it makes another 90* turn and travels through the core. Then on the outlet end that air has to make 2 more 90* turns to exit the end tank.
What winds up happening is the core heatsoaks in the area directly inline with the inlet/outlet and that kills what little bit of efficiency the core had in the first place. So obviously you'll see an increase in IATs. The other issue that happens with the remainder of the air having to turn and snake it's way to other areas of the core is a much higher pressure drop and a reduction in airflow capacity.
If you don't believe me then the next time you're on the dyno or do a sustained highway pull stop and put your hand on the front of the intercooler. You'll notice the area between the inlet/outlet is considerably hotter than the rest of the core. You could minimize this by having centered end tanks welded on but by the time you pay to do that you could have purchased a quality intercooler.
The biggest drawback to these budget cores other than their flow limitations is their pressure drop. If you run high pressures (15+) then you'll typically see at least a 2psi difference across the core which only increases with pressure. It doesn't sound like a lot but that pressure difference causes the tubocharger to work harder which means higher compressor outlet temps and ultimately higher IATs due to core heatsoak. Depending on the capabilities of your turbocharger and where you are at in terms of its limit that extra pressure could put you at or beyond its capabilities.
Now all intercoolers have some degree of pressure drop as airflow and pressure increase, that is inherent in their operation because cooler air is more dense and has less volume. Manufacturers try to balance pressure drop with airflow/heat exchange. It's possible to design a core that has the highest reduction in air temps but it's design would result in a crazy high pressure drop. Conversely it's possible to design a core with a minimal pressure drop but then it would have virtually no effect on reducing air temperatures. This is why you see most companies offer one of two designs: tube and fin or bar and plate (I won't get into that here). However the Chinese companies use whatever design is cheapest and typically their pressure drop is solely from a **** poor core design which is why you see most of them have a low airflow rating and high pressure drops. The core itself is so restrictive that as airflow and pressure increase so does restriction.
Whatever you decide on make sure the intercooler you pick has the inlet and outlet centered in the middle of the core and has adequate sized end tanks. If you can tig weld or know someone who can you can save a good bit of money on a quality intercooler by buying just the core with no endtanks and fabricate your own or buy a pre-cast piece and weld that on. Go look at atpturbo.com to see what I'm talking about.
Sometimes you can find Garrett, Bell, and PWR cores on eBay fairly cheap. That's where I found my small PWR brand new without endtanks for like 125 dollars. Bell does have fairly affordable cores to begin with. Google bell intercoolers and then go on their site and look at their air to air catalog. They give you dimensions, flow ratings, pressure drop, and price. They also have vertical or horizontal flow air to air cores and air to water cores. None of them have endtanks (and Bell gets pricey if they build them) but again if you buy a popular size then other companies will have cast endtanks you can weld on.
The other main benefit that most never consider is that the high efficiency cores offered by Garrett, Bell, and PWR are so efficient compared to the Chinese cores that you can run a much smaller core than you would need to with the Chinese cores. This is especially true with the vertical flow cores from Bell. You can run a vertical core that is literally half the size of a horizontal flow core with the same flow limits. The cost to fabricate endtanks for vertical cores will be about the same as a horizontal core. While the core might be dimensionally smaller it still takes a fair amount of material however cast endtanks are available for a large number of vertical cores as well. Treadstone offers them and you can find a good number on eBay.
Being able to run a smaller core obviously means you save money over a larger one. The smaller core means less weight (big thing if you race competitively), easier to fit which is especially useful on space limited setups, and depending on the height of the core and how it's mounted the radiator will get more ambient temperature airflow which is never a bad thing.
I strongly urge you to price out the options from the 3 companies I listed, especially in regards to Bell as their pricing has come way down in recent years and I dare say their quality exceeds Garrett in a few ways. PWR is still fairly pricey from what I can remember as I haven't checked their pricing in some time. If you get a core directly from PWR the shipping will be crazy high since they are based in Austrailia and shipping fees aren't regulated like here with the USPS if you go PWR get it from a reseller that isn't in Austrailia.
If you feel like revising your piping slightly I encourage you to look into a vertical flow core. Even if you get a vertical core from Treadstone it's still an improvement over their horizontal core and the other budget horizontal core options. I'll be using a vertical core on at least two of my high power "competition" setups.
And here I thought "I won't write a huge reply" lol.
12-14-2015, 03:36 PM
#13
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Originally Posted by LightningTeg
Some hard data on core efficiency would be nice. Seems they rate close to same power capability vs size wise, with the tread stone usually just being .5" thicker then the Garrett. Mine is pretty old (one of their originals). I don't know how good it is compared to anything else. I very well might upgrade if I can save some more space running a smaller but more efficient core, and help airflow into engine.
12-15-2015, 02:48 AM
#15
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Treadstone Intercooler
If you feel like revising your piping slightly I encourage you to look into a vertical flow core. Even if you get a vertical core from Treadstone it's still an improvement over their horizontal core and the other budget horizontal core options. I'll be using a vertical core on at least two of my high power "competition" setups.
And here I thought "I won't write a huge reply" lol.
And here I thought "I won't write a huge reply" lol.
12-16-2015, 08:03 AM
#16
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Treadstone Intercooler
If the Treadstones do slightly lack in efficiency compared to Bell,PWR, and Garrett where Treadstone absolutely excels is in flow and pressure drop. I know people that have picked up 3 psi of boost with centrifugal blowers when they went from a Procharger/Spearco core to a Treadstone.
12-16-2015, 08:52 AM
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Re: Treadstone Intercooler
Some hard data on core efficiency would be nice. Seems they rate close to same power capability vs size wise, with the tread stone usually just being .5" thicker then the Garrett. Mine is pretty old (one of their originals). I don't know how good it is compared to anything else. I very well might upgrade if I can save some more space running a smaller but more efficient core, and help airflow into engine.
If the Treadstones do slightly lack in efficiency compared to Bell,PWR, and Garrett where Treadstone absolutely excels is in flow and pressure drop. I know people that have picked up 3 psi of boost with centrifugal blowers when they went from a Procharger/Spearco core to a Treadstone.
Yeah were still waiting for some proof.
Im gonna keep holding my breath over here
12-16-2015, 03:12 PM
#18
Re: Treadstone Intercooler
If the Treadstones do slightly lack in efficiency compared to Bell,PWR, and Garrett where Treadstone absolutely excels is in flow and pressure drop. I know people that have picked up 3 psi of boost with centrifugal blowers when they went from a Procharger/Spearco core to a Treadstone.
12-16-2015, 04:31 PM
#19
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Treadstone Intercooler
The Treadstone cores are an improvement over the eBay cores and most of the Mishimoto offerings (from what I've seen personally the eBay and Mishi cores are the same thing). However available documentation for each shows that they all have fairly high pressure drops above 15psi. What bugs me the most is even their largest cores have big pressure drops.
12-16-2015, 05:10 PM
#20
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Re: Treadstone Intercooler
That's what I was getting at but couldn't find the words lol.
I've seen a few different budget intercoolers real world flow ratings didn't match the advertised flow ratings. Also I've noticed most people don't even know how to properly size an intercooler which only compounds the problem.
I'm still looking for the flow data, it's buried in my other PC.
I've seen a few different budget intercoolers real world flow ratings didn't match the advertised flow ratings. Also I've noticed most people don't even know how to properly size an intercooler which only compounds the problem.
I'm still looking for the flow data, it's buried in my other PC.
12-16-2015, 08:12 PM
#23
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Re: Treadstone Intercooler
lololol well I have 2 desktops with 2 hard drives each, I have around 5 or 6 laptops and 4 or 5 external hard drives. I store a lot of data, mainly white papers, SAE articles, tuning stuff, related photos, a few HDDs are movies and tv shows. I'm in the process of transferring the tech stuff over to my main PC. Some stuff I keep on a server but not having internet access except for my phone makes it impossible to reach
I just can't remember where I put the damn folder the info was in. I might be able to find it online again I hope.
I just can't remember where I put the damn folder the info was in. I might be able to find it online again I hope.
12-17-2015, 01:43 PM
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Re: Treadstone Intercooler
I have the data for Bell (CFM only), Garrett (HP rating only), and Treadstone. I can't find any data for PWR. I'll make a chart showing similar sized intercoolers each company offers and their respective flow data once I get home from the dentist.