raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

I know only basics about turbo and probably fail if I try to piece a kit together

can anyone point me to a good setup for a bone stock gsr/itr motor daily. with ac and PS

I'm undecided if I should change the internals to usdm ITR spec(crank, forged rods, us spec itr pistons, us spec cams and valve train and IM and leave gsr head) or leave it completely stock gsr motor
the reason is emissions. I need to be able to pass emissions with obd2 port without having to deal with tailpipe emissions. its a bitch, obd2 Is much easier to pass and I have stock usdm itr ecu for that. but the turbo setup will be tuned for driving.

so either way. a turbo is going on it and I just wanted to see some decent setups for this application.
I wouldn't know a good one if I saw one so if you have a link or two you can share it would be great.

TravisBiggie

hello fellow washington friend.

must easier piecing a kit together.... and cheaper. its real basic. Get name brand of the follow parts... turbo manifold, turbo, wastegate, and bov. everything else, EBAY!

turbo
manifold
wastegate
blow off valve
intercooler
intercooler piping
injectors
larger fuel pump
downpipe
map sensor (if over 11lbs)
chipped ecu/standalone
tune

don't think i'm missing anything.

TravisBiggie

your tuner can make a tune specifically for emissions, so that typically is not a problem

change internals? absolutely no reason to.

dylspil

to piece together a kit and build it yourself will require a huge amount of research, but the plus side is you end up with exactly what you want. if you're happy with what is offered in the good name brand off the shelf kits then you won't have any problems. there are a lot of kits out there from cheap ebay ones (hit and miss) to expensive but proven name brand ones. it basically comes down to what you want to spend...

pretty much all turbo kits will be aimed at being bolted on to a stock motor and pushing low boost, and if you're going this route then i probably wouldnt bother changing over to the ITR stuff unless you have it already.

even if you get an already "complete" turbo kit, this will probably only include a manifold, turbo, wastegate, dump pipe, intercooler, piping and bov. you will have so much more stuff to think about on top of this, like fuel delivery and engine management

i'm not sure about emissions stuff since i dont need to worry about it really, but that will all come down to your tune which i assume would need to be professionally done to pass any official emissions tests

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

its alot of info to understand it completely
The trim combinations cant make sense of
The type-r internals is already in motion im collecting parts for it.
it should still make more power on low boost than a gsr does.
againthe emissions have to be through obd2 port no tailpipe.

after reading a dozen articles i still dont understand about the trim combinations and sizes.
Thats why i wanted to see if for my first ever turbo setup i could just copy someone elses setup so i get an idea and not waste money buying parts that dont work together
I learned the hard way for all motor build dont want to make expensive mistakes for turbo lol

ramboPandA

Ill try to help you out for the things you need. But you have to do A LOT of reading, there is a ton of info you need to know so you can understand how things work and when **** goes bad you will know how to fix. Knowledge is better than just copying someone else.

Here is my setup.



GT3561
-GT40 56 trim compressor wheel. 61mm inducer/82mm exducer. 6 blade wheel
-.60 AR T04e Precision Compressor housing

-GT35 84 trim exhaust wheel. 77mm inducer/64mm exducer. 10 blade wheel
-T3 .63 AR 5-bolt Precision Exhaust Housing

Inline pro t3 manifold
Tial 35 mm wastegate
Tial Q 50 mm BoV
Precision 680 CC injectors
Spoolin Performance Inline Pro 2.5" downpipe
Hondata s300
Walboro 255
Hondata 3 bar map sensor
Boost solenoid


And if you car is OBD 2 you need :

resistor box
harness adapter for OBD 2 to OBD 1 injectors

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

I meant for a bone stock motor.
lets pick b18c5 since I kinda made up my mind and will go with itr spec motor

the trim dictates when and how much boost I will get correct?
and same goes for the turbine size.
do I pick turbine size based on my exhaust diameter?

whats the most popular compressor size for the stock itr motor?
I keep seeing the t3/t4 everywhere but then theres the letter behind it lol

most of the articles were writtenin early mid 2000 and I know that people got much better at optimizing custom kits for their specific motors that's what I'm trying to find out
to give me a better understanding how to pick the right turbo size for b series specifically. in my case a bone stock itr motor as my first turbo build.

extremeracer

My advice is to go with a complete turbo kit for your model car and either have a reputable performance shop with Honda experience install it and tune it for you - or install it yourself if you mechanically adept and have it tuned by an experienced Honda shop.

Companies like Treadstone make a simple and solid bolt-on turbo kit using brand name components. They don't specify which spec Turbonetics T3/T4 turbo they use - but you can shoot them an email to find out. Whilst Turbonetics isn't the technological leader in turbos anymore, they still build a dependable product.

https://www.treadstoneperformance.co...+GSR+all+years

Go Autoworks make a variety of kits too, ranging from basic cast manifold to different style tubular manifolds leading up to more drag type kits. For a daily driver their A/C compatible kit may fit the bill nicely.

For under $4000 you can even have a ball bearing Garrett GT series or ball bearing Turbonetics. The Turbonetics T-GA 5454, Garrett GT2860RS/GTX2867R/GT3076 will all work well depending on what your end goal is with the car and what kind of powerband you looking for (the smaller ones will come on faster and make more low down torque where as the 5454 and 3076 will come into boost later but pull stronger at high rpm.

GO-AUTOWORKS A/C Pro Kit Civic Del Sol Integra D16 B16 B18 B20 LSVTEC

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I know it's been a while, and I want to make sure that your questions are addressed fully. So my responses will be in

Well, that then means that you have a safe limit of about 320whp-350whp regardless of the turbo "kit" that you plan to look for. You must also be aware of your emissions laws regarding any visual inspections. In other words, depending upon how your state laws work, you may not be able to get the lesser expensive kits because they usually use "1) Open wastegate dumps, in which the excess exhaust energy from the turbocharger is expended into a small pipe that opens into the atmosphere, and not rerouting into the rest of the exhaust stream of the downpipe into your exhaust. This will affect you power and torque level significantly, (open dump providing more power, with the recirculated dump giving less), but you need to check your local laws. Most kits have them open dump with an additional charge for them being recirculated.

One way to eliminate part of the cost is to get a turbocharger that utilizes an internal wastegate that incorporates into the exhaust downpipe. that means, picking a turbocharger that not only allows for any of the amenities that you want to keep like A/C or power steering, but also allow for that downpipe to fit properly, by using an exhaust manifold that A) allows for internal wastegate, and B) is in a housing combination that is small enough to not need any cutting of the engine block to fit, yet provide the power levels that you're looking for. You may be spending more on the turbocharger itself, but you save a lot of time, money and headache in the other areas. This is where staying with Garrett is best, in your case.

No. stop worrying about boost pressure right now. You'll find out soon that psi is irrelevant.


"Trim" is simply a calculation that shows the distance between Inducer & exducer sizes for the compressor and exhaust wheels. The only time a "trim" matters in relative size, is if say for example, the exducer of the compressor wheel stays the same, and the only change is the compressor wheel inducer. This is why you see the terms 50 "trim", 57 "trim" and 60 "trim" being used.




All three of these historical wheels used the same exducer sized compressor wheel, and the inducer size only changed. The change in power between the three was really only about 20-40whp. but the major difference was the "behavior" of the wheels. The 50 "trim" provided more torque at lower rpm for 1.6-2.0 litre displacement engines much more effectively than the 57 and 60 "trims".

With today's variety of turbochargers available, the idea of "trim" is becoming increasingly less important, because there is no longer a direct correlation between trim, and power need. So, don't get too hung up on the "trim" idea for picking the correct Family of turbocharger.

You pick the turbocharger based upon several factors, some of which you're already predetermined to utilize, (based upon the fact that you're using a stock ITR engine internals, and its safe limitations, including the use of amenities [unless you're stating otherwise] and other areas.

When choosing a turbocharger, you want to look at Several areas including the behaviour of the turbocharger in order to know what's best. Simply going by a "power goal" is not enough. That's just the beginning.

Go too large, and sure, you make your power goal with less boost pressure, but the behaviour becomes very peaky, very low torque (which is key in "daily driving",) and controlability and ease of driving drop, because the power comes in at the last 1000-2000rpms or so.

Go too small, and you'll get great torque, but lose higher rpm power, which is where these B-series engines are at their most efficient.

There are several articles in the FAQs that point a lot of this out, but it does take a bit more time to really understand them. You can't really be in a TL;DR mood; each version has a specific reason for its discussion.





See, that's the trick. There's no longer such a thing as "most popular" for a stock B-series engine (and being a Type R is no different than any other B18C configured engine. )

You really want to base your selection in lbs/min or CFM of airflow of the compressor wheel, and the turbine exhaust flow of the exhaust wheel. These must work together to find the optimal combination, and GT series Garretts typically only work one or two ways, except for when quality aftermarket gets involved.

Remember, Size does not equal cost. Just because a turbo is physically smaller than a comparison doesn't mean its less expensive, and vice Versa.

The term "T3" looks at the exhaust turbine configuration, and "T04B", or "T04E" look at strictly the compressor housing configuration. Neither of these look at the wheels themselves because literally hundreds of combinations from both the General aftermarket AND specific models that can have completely different behavioural affects on power, drivability, cost, purpose, etc.

Here are a few links to terminology and nomenclature you need to try and get a BASIC understanding of. You'll never master it completely, as it takes YEARS to actually plan for yourself and others, but you can get an idea of where you need to be for its use.

Generic terminology
Garrett General Terminology

This one works well, but may use older turbine wheel sizes that no longer are in production. They don't take into account new designs in compressor wheel technology in these particular articles.

Turbo Science technology.. You'll need coffee for this one

Here's a good example of a turbocharger size comparison chart. Don't worry about the fact that it was from a Nissan VG30DETT source. Look at the compared flow rates of the turbochargers you're looking at. Again, this chart doesn't take into account newer versions of technology from both the OEM and their Performance divisions or aftermarket companies.

Turbo size comparison chart

Here's a more recent one utilizing more current use of today's turbochargers, but still doesn't account for all of the factors. Size matters, but only if its the correct configuration.

FFTEC turbocharger size comparison chart.

In my opinion, based upon your particular use of the stock ITR engine, I'd say staying around the 49lbs/min-55lbs/min range is where you would be most comfortable. staying in T04B compressor cover size is optimal, but that again, depends upon what you're trying to keep as far as amenities, and look into your budget (Maximum willingness to spend on a turbocharger).

Lastly, take into account the fact that many "kits", don't all provide the proper oil feed equipment you need to ensure reliability and safety. That also needs to be accounted for in your budget. Especially for one like yourself that wants "daily reliability", that comes at a cost, because there are areas that MUST be addressed in the way of hardware that the "kit" may not provide. (Proper oil feed fittings, water lines, inline oil filter, oil return flanges, etc). These can MAKE OR BREAK a turbocharger's lifespan.






That's a tall order you're asking. You can research for months on end for what may work best, but in the end, someone WILL know more than you based upon your needs and budget. So, don't be afraid to say that you can only narrow down your choices and not just PICK ONE right away.

Turbocharging is as much art as it is science, so you're going to have different perspectives as to what is considered "streetable" or "Drivable". so, when talking with other individuals or companies, make sure that 1) they're familiar with the engine's capabilities, 2) that they know your driving style and "purpose" for the car. 3) you've given them EVERYTHING by way of a history, (using A/C, Power Steering, what size radiator you're using, etc). and 4) Don't get overhyped as to what "everyone else is using", because THEY ARE NOT YOU.

I don't know how many times people call up PTE and say that they want 350whp now an 500whp later, only to get recommended a turbocharger that is for over 700whp.. "Oh, that will make power!"... Meanwhile, within 5 months, they're selling it online because they found they were sold too large a turbocharger to practically use.

Some final links to look at:

Oil feed fitting styles can kill a turbocharger!! B18 oil /coolant lines.

Intercoolers Size alone is not all that matters!

Unlike most FAQs on H-T. The ones for Forced Induction are VERY informative and kept up with regularly.

Which manifold type is for me?



My ultimate recommendation is to get half-"kit" half your own preference. The "kit" (Depending upon company source) provides a lot of items that you won't remember or take into account for fitment. (hose couplers, T-bolt clamps, oil return flange fittings, oil feed line, etc)

But even kits from one company can fit turbochargers from others, as long as you know the size housings (both turbine / compressor) that you're using for the turbocharger. So, you're not stuck with that ONE company's options.

Lastly, take into account new clutch with higher torque ratings, better brake pads, lines and fluids, use of different spark plugs, injectors, fuel pump, and most important engine management system etc. They are easy to get, but you cannot put it together bit by bit and drive turbocharged.
Going OBD1 Computer is your best option, but you need to look at your laws on emissions. The days of completely emissions compliant its is OVER, but you can come close.

Good luck, and its best to have as many specific questions in one thread as possible. Make a build thread to help with this process instead of creating 20 different thread addressing one question. Again, 99.999% has already been addressed, its just that the headings to their topics were terrible..

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

hory crap thanks mang. I was reading garrett tech section but I was reading it wrong lol

"affects performance by shifting the airflow capacity" I mistakenly read as the power band and when the boost comes in...

you know when you have 10 ideas and in reality only have enough cash and enough time to do one. that's why theres so many threads me asking about different options.

I was almost dead set on vortech since its a Bolton kit and is somewhat like a turbo and I feel like I would love the almost linear power increase of that kit.
but they are a bitch to find...
then I considered using JRSC for a short time since they are more available. but they are almost all missing the Teflon coating and brackets lol.

I love all motor and I love the sound of b series. that's why it seems like I'm wasting my money when I could go with k swap . I enjoy driving a b series a lot and I don't think I would switch to k anytime soon unless I buy a car that came with k series from the factory.

and someone mentioned that for emissions I can just take the charge pipe off.
we have no visual inspection but after the nightmare of 6 failed tailpipe tests I never want to do it again unless I really have no choice
once you do a tailpipe test on obd2 car you have to either pass or wait for next time around to do the obd2 test again ( in other words if you cant pass might as well sell the car)

its gonna be a long project for sure. hopefully by the time I'm done we still have gasoline powered cars around

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

every time i stick my nose in a turbo section i leave with more confusion than i came in after reading that's why i figure i start with a stock motor turbo
but i see now that my idea of boosting on stock fuel system is going nowhere lol

if i change to walbro the stock ecu pretty much goes out the window for emissions...

i need to rethink this whole idea. compromise fail

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Good luck to you.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

I'm backing away slowly into my cave now for more planning haha.
but I'm shaking my fist "this is not over yet" only temporary retreat back to my corner.

seems like i wanted too much compromise(again). I'm just starting ahead of time so i get it right by the time i start ordering turbo parts i have a better idea about what I'm doing.
but great points there...
its definitely happening tho. i mean long term within next 2 years or maybe a year.
I'm already working on the type-r part just got the crank for it
and looking for the rest of the itr internals...

sometimes i wish b series had MAF and i could add a low boost turbo on a stock ecu

when I bought the car it had a chipped p28 in it so I had to use an obd1 ecu with a b16 motor in the car while I was rebuilding the original gsr motor.
and I only found out later that after I do a tailpipe test I have to pass. I cant just come back next time and ask for an obd2 test even when obd2 port is working and has correct ecu.
the car was fucked at every angle possible. I'm still looking for electrical issues 2 years later... although its I'm much better shape now and I'm a sucker for integras.
I don't think it would still pass idle emissions that's where the problem was every time. and still is with new everything... which leaves me to belive theres some intermittent short or wiring issue that I cant find...

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Then to be very honest, you need to forget the OEM ITR internals and go for the forged components FROM THE BEGINNING.

If you want to use anything from the Type R to get a small advantage over other builds, then just use the camshafts. But none of the benefits of the Type R, (heavier counter-weighted cranshaft, piston compression or rods) outside of camshafts will help you at all.

Get the aftermarket forged rods/pistons for this, and don't bother with a Type R engine, unless you already have it. What your original post dictates is that you already have the Type R engine bone stock/ assembled already. If you don't, then don't bother building A Type R short block. You just spend time and money on something very limited for utility and use for turbocharging.

If you're going to start with anything to get going for this. BUY THE TURBOCHARGER FIRST.... Everything revolves around the turbocharger's size and configuration; Exhaust manifold, piping, intake filter, downpipe, exhaust,... everything, revolves around the placement and size of the turbocharger.

Plus, turbocharger prices change dramatically. What was affordable now, isn't so affordable or accessible later. If you get all the part surrounding it now, and turbocharger choice changes, you wind up reselling EVERYTHING just to make your turbocharger choice fit properly. So that's why we do this in a particular order; to save headache later.

Schister66

That's a smart move. All too often people jump into these setups half-cocked. Plan this out properly and do your research - it'll save you a lot of $$ in the long run.

2kdrift

x2

If your rebuilding the motor and want to boost it, putting crappy OEM internals back in is just not a good idea. (this will severely limit your turbo charging options) Put some H beam rods and forged pistons in there.

Well its not that bad really, build your block, buy an off the shelf kit from go-auto, get hondata and injectors and get it tuned.

The thing that your are missing is you never gave us a GOAL or PURPOSE that will dictate both the type of kit and actual turbo that will be best. Read the FAQ a few more times and come back with a GOAL AND PURPOSE and we can send you in the right direction. Give us an actual HP number that you are trying to make and how the car will be driven ie drag strip, street car, autox etc

Once you find your goal this might be helpful to see what has been done in the past: http://www.evans-tuning.com/dynos

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Well, in all fairness to raverxm, he's always had the same goal, just trying different methods to obtain his means to get there over the last couple of years.

He's been trying to get the power of over 300whp-350whp, but still wants the reliability, cost effectiveness and utility of starting in the morning, going to work, or wherever, and returning home everyday with 300whp under his belt, with the linear power/torque capability of a supercharger, all while staying OBD2A (or OBD2B) compliant for the Emissions *****.

Again, that's going to be a tall order he's asking for, and it can be done. But it's within his best interest to get the turbocharger first and foremost, so that any subsequent parts he gets later, be they by "kit" or pieced together, will fit within his setup without redundancy. In turbocharging, because there are so many components, you can easily lose track and double up on something you don't plan to.

scottcraft

This is a great thread with some really good info! Subscribed!

2kdrift

Ohh ok you know everyone story here haha.....I didnt see any goal stated

in the STC lineup, he would be looking at a SS correct?

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

My goal was unrealistic
I wanted to have a type-r motor that can run on stock ecu that was original plan for this car.
But having a type-r in my del sol is telling me that its not gonna be fast enough still and i will eventually want to turbo it.
What is stopping me from using non itr spec internals is the emissions headache.

I wanted a very flexible setup where but its not possible(not cost effective) now that i really add things up.
Its possible but alot more expensive for little gains that i will have with these limitations.

2kdrift

aftermarket pistons / rods will make you fail emissions? serious question

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

from what I gathered if they are stock spec shouldn't affect the emissions testing

a lot of the cars here fail idle emissions..
which is what happened to me

they stick it in the tail pipe . idle, then shut down then restart and idle then rev it to 3000 rpm for about 3 minutes and usually if something is wrong codes start popping about a minute into it.

with a healthy and maintained motor the 3000 rpm is a cake to pass
but idle is a bitch most of the time.
plus crome and Neptune unless tuned really really good by god himself always have that lean hot restart issue where it leans out by 1afr or so and then goes back to normal.
I failed that in my tuned motor
and failed 4 out of 6 times with this car when it had bone stock b16 with a stock cat and new o2 sensors and stock b16a2 ecu. i still don't kow what the reason was for having high emissions at idle it made no sense
but after that experience i never want to do a tailpipe emission in this again.
obd2 on the other hand is cake. i passed cars that barely made it out of the emissions station one almost died as soon as i hit the road it had low compression in 2 cylinders and still passed.



i was thinking about shodan's suggestion to go with forged rods and aftermarket pistons forged or cast like npr/rs machines( they seem to be pretty solid for the power levels I'm looking for

if anything i I'm almost positive i can play with the FPR to get the fuel trims to stock levels in low RPM.

vtak controller here i come

otherwise scrap the whole plan and buy a turbo kit and what he said... but then it seems too easy theres no challenge no overthinking anything

to be honest i got sidetracked with a type-r motor rebuild that i didn't plan on. and i had no car to put it in, it was supposed to be a quick flip but it needed a lot of repairs and fixin. then
it almost ended up in the integra but i decided to keep the original block with matching vin numbers since its a 2000 gsr sedan with black leather interior and i put in a lot of work to make it nice and keep it as stock as i can.
that's where the idea of type-r internals came into play. so i would still have original block and tranny and only replace intake manifold with itr style and run on stock ecu

and now tax season and vacation and bunch of sht piling up all at the same time and i went through ideas like a snowplow.
i was hoping to find a vortech kit for about 2 years but gave up and decided to go turbo after someone suggested that i don't have to remove the whole turbo kit and just remove the charge pipe and put stock ecu back in for emissions

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Ok. Last tip, then you're on your own to overthink.

-Tuning will determine whether you fail or not in your test of emissions, not whether or not you use aftermarket piston/rod combinations, whether it is forged or cast. (Overthinking again..)

-Turbocharging cannot use ANY stock ecu or even stock injectors. Won't matter. you can't play with FUEL TRIMS to stock levels if you're using the stock ECU.

-There's nothing wrong with too easy and less overthinking. It's one of the main reasons why you'll get things done in under 2 years.

Ok.. now. I've done MORE than enough.. time for you to get to work.

GOod luck.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

i I'm not planning to do any of the above. i was answering the other dude's question based on what someone said in my other thread.

i was told that having forged rods wont make a difference but having forged pistons might affect fueling requirements and ignition tables with a stock ecu since they are lighter and have different heat transfer properties in relation to detonation or something like that
i was poking around about the itr internals with gsr head and forged pistons that was before i decided to add turbo to the equation.

now with the turbo setup the obd2 ecu use was gonna be only to pass emissions when the charge pipe is off the car and everything is returned to stock that was my plan
i know a good tune will pass i just didn't want to take chances unless necessary

my friend is in the same boat. even after getting it retuned and tune up done he kept failing idle emissions in his 13.1 CR b20vtec with BC5 cams. surprisingly he barely passed everything except idle.. without a cat

i don't know why the idle emissions are such a bitch in this place


what i meant is i can increase or decrease the fuel pressure to bring the short fuel trim closer to zero for a stock ecu in closed loop i had to do it for this gsr motor, the fuel trims were going off the chart at first with stock fuel pressure. which turned out to be wrong year fuel pump and wrong oem FPR. i got it from swinging as much as 17 trim to no more than 6 short fuel trim most of the time

i just need to weigh the options again now that the turbo makes a bit more sense lol now that i try to put it all in words it looks too damn complicated but it all seemed easy in my head...

thanks for the info again.shodan

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

well maybe i just found a solution to my emissions problem
in this thread
https://honda-tech.com/engine-manage...-kpro-3273141/

if that works i can see kpro prices skyrocket higher than NSX and hondata gonna probably do something they always do and find a way to stop this so they can sell more s300 units lol
but hopefully not because that would save me from buying a wideband controller and i can buy and modify an obd2 car and pass emissions with obd2 plug