BigMoose

Guys.........1st I apologize for having to be a bit circumspect on this post. Some of you know my interest in oxygen sensors and wideband oxygen sensors in particular....... I thought it prudent to share a bit of this knowledge to "protect" some of you..... while not slamming any product or manufacturer.

I too have been following the scarcity of the NTK L1H1 Sensors. I too wish I would have nailed 1000 of them for $99 bucks 3 years ago....but I did not.

1st my advice.... do not invest in a wideband controller untill you have a sensor in hand also consider that the NTK sensor that you have may be your last.

I cannot share exact specifics because of confidentiality agreements.... But I just got off the phone with NTK USA after talking with NTK Europe GMBH thru my technology partner in Germany.

Here are the facts as presented to us by real-deal NTK employees:

The NTK L1H1 sensor will ONLY be sold to Honda in the future.

The Non Honda NTK wide band sensor which has a different connector and a different calibration resistor scheme is now in its 3rd generation of development.

1st Generation ... TL-7111-W1 Obsolete
2nd Generation .. TL-6111-W1 Obsolete
3rd Generation .. TL-6312-W1 Current Production Price from NTK $600.00 ea

Note: As currently configured the TL-6312-W1 sensor is not compatible with controllers such as the Techedge ..... and others.

A commercial sensor (part No. LZA-03-E1) with the characteristics of the TL-6312-W1 is available to those who will put the cash upfront to buy a production run of 1000 pieces. I followed thru on this and if I was willing to fork over between 1/4 million to 1/2 million bucks to NTK to buy a run, I would have to retail these sensors to you for ... are you sitting down? ...... $476 bucks each!

I do not think that is going to be cost effective for this market. Not to mention what my wife will say when I ask her if we can borrow another million or so to buy sensors and build a wide band sensor controller production facility. Re-reading this even makes me laugh.............

I hope this information may help some from getting burned with unrealistic expectations in their purchases.

There were threads lately on certain manufacturer's accuracy with NTK sensors. The literature I had from NTK did not specify a measurement accuracy so I asked their engineer this today. His answer was for the following system....which you can buy today from NTK.....

Sensor: TL-6312-W1 $600.
Controller TC-6110-D $400.
Cable TH-2009-W1 $60.

Accuracy measuring at 12/1 air fuel ratio 0.1 Air/Fuel Ratio. In other words if you measure 12/1 it is really somewhere between 11.9/1 and 12.1/1

Regards,
BigMoose

(Note.... these things (NTK L1H1's) are and may still show up thru the "grey" market.... for lower prices and with spotty availability. NTK may change their mind.... Who knows... but now you know ... mostly... what I know.)

edit to add some humor.


Modified by BigMoose at 9:32 PM 4/21/2003

93LSivic

Thanks for the informative post! I will be sure to hold on tightly to mine.
Im wondering if theres other manufacturers out there that we can goto for the UEGO sensors. I know that Tag has a pretty sick wideband setup.....but we're talking mucho dinero there.

BigMoose

There are only two manufacturers of pumped nernst cell wideband sensors and a number of controller manufacturers. The two sensor manufactuers are NTK and Bosch with the LSU4 series of sensors. The two sensors brands are not interchangeable. (By this I do not mean the Bosch NTK sensor which is made by NTK and retailed by Bosch to the Honda aftermarket....I do not have the bosch number with me for this sensor, but I have it at home.....I'll edit this post later with the Bosch short number)

The Bosch have different ion pump characteristics and a very stringent heater requirement for accuracy approaching the NTK. So the controllers are not interchangeable. (I have the detailed engineering data sheets from both NTK and Bosch.) Though I know of at least one manufacturer's controller that can handle both brands of sensors..... and it has a price tag of about $1 kilobuck............... I do not know of any "low priced" controller that handles the LSU4, though there are a number of people working on them..............

The Bosch controller and sensor similar in accuracy to the NTK that I described above is around $6K to $8K if my memory serves me correctly.............retailed by ETAS Model LA-3.

I have bought a number of Bosch LSU4 sensors to characterize them and paid around 130 euro's in one off quantities in Germany.

Regards,
BigMoose


Modified by BigMoose at 7:04 PM 4/21/2003

TurboTegB18c

Good informative post.

BigMoose

As promised and to the best of my knowledge, and my testing done to date, the following are ALL the same NTK wide band sensor, manufactured by NTK to the same Honda specifications regardless of who's name finally lands on the box:

Honda Part Number 36531-P07-003
NAPA OS-791
Bosch 13246
PartsBin C5010-75044

Regards,
BigMoose

JT

Thanks for the info!

SEFIxCivic

i talked with the people at speed pro/fast, which uses that same sensor, and they tell me they have no problem getting that sensor?

dfoxengr

damn this sux...

Pat

Techedge says on their site that their version 2.0 will use the Bosch LSU 4, hopefully their controller will be reasonably priced.

BigMoose

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SEFI8LOxCivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i talked with the people at speed pro/fast, which uses that same sensor, and they tell me they have no problem getting that sensor?</TD></TR></TABLE>

OK now do us all a favor and ask them where they source them from and in what quantity. If there is a source lets find it before they are all gone.

From Fast's web site:
5-Wire Oxygen Sensor
For wide band, closed loop applications. The ECU can adjust for air/fuel ratios from 10:1 to 16:1. 5-Wire O2 Sensor, (Cannot be used with OEM ECUs) Part No. 30-7000 Price: $399.00

Notice their price $399.00 They may be selling off a previous production run of a couple thousand that they purchased directly from NTK...... From my first post, if I sprung for a 1000 part production run today , I could not retail them for $399..... at today's price..... so they may be pricing a previous run..... just don't know.

I believe the product line engineer I talked to at NTK....................FWIW

Regards,
BigMoose

edit to add Fast web site data.


Modified by BigMoose at 6:53 PM 4/21/2003

hatchy

So basically, the reason the sensors are so expensive is:

a) NTK doesn't want to make more
b) NTK is in exclusive contract for the L1H1 and NTK can't make more with Honda's permission

What do you think the margine is for these for NTK? Since the R&D has been done, I find it hard to believe that it would cost them that much to make another 5 or 10K?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BigMoose &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

OK now do us all a favor and ask them where they source them from and in what quantity. If there is a source lets find it before they are all gone.

From Fast's web site:
5-Wire Oxygen Sensor
For wide band, closed loop applications. The ECU can adjust for air/fuel ratios from 10:1 to 16:1. 5-Wire O2 Sensor, (Cannot be used with OEM ECUs) Part No. 30-7000 Price: $399.00

Notice their price $399.00 They may be selling off a previous production run of a couple thousand that they purchased directly from NTK...... From my first post, if I sprung for a 1000 part production run today , I could not retail them for $399..... at today's price..... so they may be pricing a previous run..... just don't know.

I believe the product line engineer I talked to at NTK....................FWIW

Regards,
BigMoose

edit to add Fast web site data.


Modified by BigMoose at 6:53 PM 4/21/2003</TD></TR></TABLE>

hatchy

oh btw, thanks for doing all that research and, more importantly, sharing it!

93LSivic

FWIW I would like to add this.
The NTK sensor shouldnt have anything to do with Honda car company being the only auto manufacturer using this sensor. Other car companies like Audi, Porsche, and Im sure many others are using these sensors.

BigMoose

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 93LSivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">FWIW I would like to add this.
The NTK sensor shouldnt have anything to do with Honda car company being the only auto manufacturer using this sensor. Other car companies like Audi, Porsche, and Im sure many others are using these sensors.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I want to keep the facts straight out here........... Honda is the ONLY manufacturer to use the NTK wideband. Others have used Bosch LSU4 widebands.......Audi, VW, Porsche and a couple of domestics to date........... I have the part number crosses for one variant of the LSU 4 series that would be Long Bosch Part numbers 0 258 007 XXX . (but I can't share whats different between the 0 258 007 xxx and 0 258 006 xxx series because of data restrictions)

If you KNOW of other users of the NTK wideband post them please. But lets state facts, not conjecture. The community does not need more confusion on this issue.

Regards,
BigMoose

BigMoose

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hatchy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So basically, the reason the sensors are so expensive is:

a) NTK doesn't want to make more
b) NTK is in exclusive contract for the L1H1 and NTK can't make more with Honda's permission

What do you think the margine is for these for NTK? Since the R&D has been done, I find it hard to believe that it would cost them that much to make another 5 or 10K?

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Great question. Let me try to answer. About 4 months ago I hooked up with an NGK employee (note not NTK) ... NGK own's NTK. It's like a subsidiary. We got to talking, and there were many of those strategic pauses...... I did a fair amount of research on why the supply chain dried up, and tried to get a direct answer from him. He would neither confirm or deny the scenario that I relate below. But said, no one but Honda is going to get the sensor that was designed for Honda anymore......

I could get a sensor designed to "my requirements" by NTK then it would be my intellectual property. Sold to me, and no others. The price is between them and me, but suffice it say the price of entry is quite substantial and not cost effective for this market.

Now why is the Honda sensor only going to Honda? Turns out a company named Horriba proportidly has exclusive rights for distribution of the NTK sensor (very similar to but NOT the Honda L1H1 sensor) in North America for measurement of air fuel ratio in combustion devices. If you want to know their sensor price, ask them. But it is a world of hurt above what we were paying (and are paying if you can get them) for NTK L1H1 wideband sensors. Apparently they squaked and wanted NTK to tightened up the grey market in sensors. That is the aftermarket autoparts distribution of Honda L1H1 sensors.

Now none of this is confirmed. And I am sure open to anyone else that has the confirmed story on what is really going on. My technology partner in Germany ran the same trap line independently thru European channels and got the same "general" answers.

We all need to make our own judgments. I did a ton of research, but what are we to do take a NTK employee hostage to get the right answer?

Now to answer your price question. Since we were able to get these sensors 3 or 4 years ago for around 100 bucks retail, that would put them around 50 to 70 bucks wholesale. That proabably represents a fair "product" price devoid of intellectual property issues and exclusive distribution agreements.

I believe the problem is a right to market issue and not a technical problem with manufacture or a cost of manufacture problem. We could proabably get the price we all want with a 1,000,000 million item order to NTK. Anyone have ohhhhhhhh around $100 million bucks they have no immediate use for and a warehouse to hold unsold sensors?

Regards,
BigMoose

93LSivic

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BigMoose &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I want to keep the facts straight out here........... Honda is the ONLY manufacturer to use the NTK wideband. Others have used Bosch LSU4 widebands.......Audi, VW, Porsche and a couple of domestics to date........... I have the part number crosses for one variant of the LSU 4 series that would be Long Bosch Part numbers 0 258 007 XXX . (but I can't share whats different between the 0 258 007 xxx and 0 258 006 xxx series because of data restrictions)

If you KNOW of other users of the NTK wideband post them please. But lets state facts, not conjecture. The community does not need more confusion on this issue.

Regards,
BigMoose </TD></TR></TABLE>

Sorry, I stand corrected. I was unsure which sensor the other car manufacturers used...now I do.
Ive heard somewhere the Porsche 911 turbo had the "best" sensor out there......I guess this was just hearsay, or it was compared to the typical 4 wire sensors.

XDEep

sigh.. is techedge the only one working on an lsu4 implementation (eta may/june)? what about the diy-wb?

are there any performance/reliability differences between the bosch and ntk?

genop

BigMoose, you seem to know what you are talking about when it comes to these sensors so I have a question for you. Why are these damn things so hard to get! Arent they superior in just about every way to a narrowband sensor? Why doesnt honda use them anymore? Are they harder to make or do they just love seeing us blow motors because we cant afford a $1200 wideband setup......I know they dont last as long, but if they were in wide use they could be bought for cheap.....I just dont understand why car manufacturers would use something inferior. From their standpoint a wideband sensor would be better because it is more expensive and it need to be replaced more often, which is good for whoever is selling the damn thing...sorry to go off on a rant but I am pissed now because I built the controller assuming I could get a sensor later, how wrong I was.

BigMoose

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by XDEep &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">are there any performance/reliability differences between the bosch and ntk?</TD></TR></TABLE>

For our applications on blown engines I believe they are both OK. Motec (their controller can drive either sensor) says the NTK has a little better intrinsic accuracy, but from the data I have run they are very similar, but the Bosch's accuracy is highly dependent upon how good the controller is. The ETAS LA-3 (see my posts above) is considered a Cadillac in the air fuel ratio measurement field and it uses a Bosch LSU4.

I have compared the spec lifetime on unleaded fuel and they are commensurate between the NTK and Bosch.

My bottom line (FWIW) is either will serve our community well.....with a good controller for the Bosch a mandatory requirement.

Regards,
BigMoose

BigMoose

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by genop &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BigMoose, .... I have a question for you. Why are these damn things so hard to get! ... see above post on intellectual property rights.....Arent they superior in just about every way to a narrowband sensor? </TD></TR></TABLE>

First don't give up hope on the sensor. I hope folks understand that I started this thread NOT to knock anyone's product. But when I got off the phone today with NTK I thought I need to share the advice to "get the sensor first, before buying a controller." Since it looked like our supply of sensors was dried up.

Now to answer your question. The wideband is best for keeping a blown motor together. But it is not better for normal production and emissions in N/A engines... unless it is a lean burn like the VX was.

Here is the reason. (Now the following data is from memory so it might be a bit discrepent.) Did you guys know that about 80 to 90 percent of local driving cycle emissions are produced while the oxygen sensors and catalyst are heating up for the engine to go into closed mode? The wideband has almost double to triple the warmup, light off, and stabilization time of normal narrow band sensor. Add to that the increased wholsale cost of the sensor and controller. I am guessing here. Lets say a normal 4 wire wholesales for 9 bucks, the wideband for 40 bucks and the controller integration in the ecm another 10 bucks. Multiplied by a million vehicles is $41 million down the drain and increased hydrocarbon and carbon monoxide emissions. That is why I think we will only see them where needed. On turbo charged and highly supercharged engines.

Then there is the response time issue under normal cruise. The wideband has a response time of 80 to 100 milliseconds, the narrowband can be up to 5 or 10 times faster. Faster -&gt; less emissions because the engine "system" can be optimized to respond faster.

Hoped this helped some............ don't mean to monopolize the thread.

Regards,
BigMoose

genop

Thanx for the info! Answered my question perfectly.

BTW its ok to monopolize a thread when you are giving out A+ info

SEFIxCivic

would u know if the LSU4 bosch sensor is lead resistant or not? the NTK absolutely rocks in this catagory. some people claim to run race fuel exculsively on their original sensor which are a couple years old. my sensor gave/gives similar performance. carbon fouling, and oil fouling can kill the sensor pretty fast though.

sak

What about for tuners who actualy uses these sensors to tune their customer's cars? My local tuner uses these sensors and says that he has to replace them about every six months because it gets clogged up and so it becomes less accurate. The reason for his 6 month replacement is because he's constantly tuning on his system so I understand why he has to replace it within 6 months time.

But can you at least open the window a bit if NTK actually agrees to sell only to Honda?

Secondly what about the Civic VX? Do you know if the Honda dealers will still offer this sensor for these cars?

Tyler H

There may be some very exciting news regarding wideband O2 sensors/controllers released this weekend at the SEMA IAS show. But you didn't hear that from me.....

SiRkid

hmm..might be time for me to head to my local honda dealers and buy them all out cause here in canaduh we have tonnes!