ken00si

I don't have good news. A couple of my buddies who built my car took it to the Whip Factory to get tuned by Super Dave on a Neptune system. I missed out because I had to work. Below is my setup, the compression is 10.5-1 due to the pitsons. And I don't know the exact details but here it goes...

The car went on the dyno and on the first run with just a basemap it made 340whp. Then he did a few more runs to tune it and it made 300whp at 10psi, and 340whp at 14psi. And as he was setting the low boost setting the lower radiator hose blew off. So they put it back on with a stronger clamp and filled it back up. Then they turned the car back on and fluid shot out the radiator like a geyser. At that point they knew something was wrong because there was too much pressure.

So we have yet to diagnose the problem and can't look at it until Monday but we are hoping that it is just a blown head gasket. They said that the worst case scenario is that it might be a cracked sleeve. Pray with me that is just the head gasket! If so, then we will be ordering a .051ths Cometic head gasket to reduce the compression to 9.5-1. But I don't understand because I see other cars running a stock block with high compression and getting great results. For example...

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1975426

What do you guys think? Anybody seen this situation before? Any feedback is much appreciated. Thanks!

Motor:
B16
Stock block bored 20 over
Forged SRP pistons and rings
Forged Eagle rods
Clevite bearings
ARP main studs and head studs
Ferrea intake and exhaust oversized valves
Stage 2 comp cams
Comp cams Valve springs and titanium retainers
Cometic Head gasket
Type R oil pump
Pro series Skunk2 intake manifold
Felpro gasket kit

Turbo:
SC61
44mm Tial wastegate
50mm Tial BOV
Precision 600hp intercooler
Neukin ramhorn exhaust manifold
3" downpipe w/recir dumptube
Precision 1000cc injectors
Mishimoto aluminum racing radiator
AEM fuel pressure regulator
Walbro 255lph fuel pump
TurboXS dual stage boost controller

Turbo-charged

your compression isnt the problem. sounds to me like you just popped the headgasket, lifted the head, or have an uneven head/deck service. how much ignition timing at 14psi on what fuel? ive done well over 14psi on stock sleeves on compressoin that high if not higher on pump gas.

SOHC_MShue

yup sounds like you lifted the head or cracked a sleeve.

blackeg

take the spark plugs out and turn the motor over. if the sleeve is cracked you will more than likely see the coolant either in the spark plug hole or see it come out of the cylinder.

when i cracked my sleeve, i took my plugs out and the coolant shot out of the plug hole all over the bottom of my hood, thats when you know u have trouble lol.

more than likely just popped the hg

ken00si

One more thing that I forgot to mention is that the head bolts were only tightened to 75 on the torque wrench, and the tuner said that we should've tightened it more because of all the pressure that builds up in the motor. So he also thinks that the head lifted or the headgasket popped.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Turbo-charged &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how much ignition timing at 14psi on what fuel? ive done well over 14psi on stock sleeves on compressoin that high if not higher on pump gas.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm glad to hear that!!! Not sure about the ignition timing, the tuner took care of that. And the car was running on 93 octane.


Modified by ken00si at 8:44 AM 6/22/2007

alpha

I wouldnt worry about ignition timing. You brought the car to Whip Factory for a reason. From what I have seen and heard their tuner knows what he is doing. Even if a sleeve cracked. 90% of the time you have no idea the condition of the sleeves prior to boosting. Was the head checked before assembly? Was the deck checked before assembly?

ken00si

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alpha &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Was the head checked before assembly? Was the deck checked before assembly?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm assuming so. I got the motor from my friend who had it completely rebuilt in the Winter of 05/06 by a professional service through his uncle, see details of build below. And he put 20k miles on the motor before transferring it to my car. So as far as I know, the motor was good to go.

What are your thoughts???


The block and head are the original castings. The block was bored 20 over, decked, and cleaned. It has forged SRP pistons and rings. Forged Eagle rods. The crankshaft is stock, it was cleaned and polished. All bearings were replaced with clevite bearings. ARP main studs and head studs were installed. The head recieved a five angle valve job, cleaned, miced, and pressure tested. Ferrea intake and exhaust oversized valves. Set of stage 2 comp cams, Comp cams Valve springs, and titanium retainers. Cometic Head gasket. All new intake and exhaust guides. Type R oil pump. Pro series Skunk2 intake manifold. Felpro gasket kit.

alpha

The same. You never know the conditition of cylinder sleeves. Especially after what I assume 20,000 boosted miles and however many were on it already. Block could have been overheated, etc. At this point you dont know the extent of the damage though. Time to either pull the head or do a cylinder leak down test

ken00si

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alpha &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The same. You never know the conditition of cylinder sleeves. Especially after what I assume 20,000 boosted miles and however many were on it already. Block could have been overheated, etc. At this point you dont know the extent of the damage though. Time to either pull the head or do a cylinder leak down test</TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually he got the motor built and ran NA only for 20k miles, but he was always hard on the pedal.

We are pulling the head on monday, and I am praying to the boost gods until then!

Thanks for the feedback!

alpha

Gotcha. Well. Good luck with it. If it's only a head gasket go over the surfaces again

turbodohcsi

90lbs of torque on the head? HELL NO! I dont even know if i would go 75. It sounds to me like you blew the headgasket, which would most likely be due to improper torque sequence, dont really know how to use a torque wrench, didnt go back over and check the torque. Or it could be that you tightened it down to much and started pulling the head up in between the bolts (hard to explain, but it happens when you tighten stuff down to much.)

da_dude

I troque my sohc vtec head to 75 ft lbs and its fine. I have done a couple head at 75 ft lbs and no problems whatsoever. Maybe they install the headgasket backward or something. But I think 90 ft lbs is a little too much in my book. I have done 80 ft lbs on my brother turbo gsr with no problem for 2 years now.

alpha

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turb20_vtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I troque my sohc vtec head to 75 ft lbs and its fine. I have done a couple head at 75 ft lbs and no problems whatsoever. Maybe they install the headgasket backward or something. But I think 90 ft lbs is a little too much in my book. I have done 80 ft lbs on my brother turbo gsr with no problem for 2 years now. </TD></TR></TABLE>

You would know once the car was running the head gasket is on upside down

HiProfile

Did you upgrade to 1/2" ARP headstuds? If not and they are the stock size, 90lbs could overstretch them, and ARP's are basicly useless after that. As they say, its a LOT easier to make crazy recommendations when its not your money (or motor) on the line. Just remember that most tuners see a car once or twice on the dyno, never every day. In other words, they really can't see the long-term impacts of any unconventional decisions they may make. Not to suggest Super Dave is like that, I'm just saying to take advice with a grain of salt. 340whp on 10.5:1 CR is really getting up there, and combined with the B16's long rod/stroke ratio (which basicly keeps the cyl pressures high for longer), I wouldn't be surprised if it was just the HG.

ken00si

Thanks for the feedback guys

If it is a cracked sleeve, hopefully it will only be minor and then I can go with darton or superdeck sleeves. I haven't looked into sleeves and don't know much about them. I will soon though!

If I have to get the block sleeved, do you guys think it would be best to get new pistons as well? I just want to get it right this time and be sure that the setup is perfect.

sleepless247

Alright Ken here it is. Your first intial pull netted you 277whp at an easy 7-9psi. This was done on the base map that got the car up and running. A few pulls later the car made 297whp at 9-10 psi. The run that made 341whp was done at 14psi. The A/F ratio was clean across the board and fine tuning was actually going to begin for the high boost setting. Dave wanted to do one more run to set the low boost setting @ 300whp. Thats when the lower radiator hose decided to let go. Were pretty sure its the head gasket(crosses fingers). The car was running so smooth there was no detonation, the a/f ratio looked good, and timing was on the money.

I spoke to "The Uncle" yesterday and told him the news. He said that if the head or deck needed to be milled he would take care of it. No worries there.

All in all it was a good day. Super Dave and the crew at Whip Factory are very knowledgable. We learned alot that day and had a great time there with them. You definately need to bring your *** out next time. We'll get the the "Black Curse"(Jays name for your car) running and tearing up the tarmack. In the mean time you should find some OEM bumpers, OEM si lip kit, 15 or 16" wheels, JDM CTR headlights and a HID retro-kit.

HybridKOOP

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... and combined with the B16's long rod/stroke ratio (which basicly keeps the cyl pressures high for longer), I wouldn't be surprised if it was just the HG.</TD></TR></TABLE>

FWIW, reverse it.

jarven093

Ill put my money on the Intake manti. gasket..... i had that problem too the radiator filling with air and blowing up hoses caz the intake gasket was leaking into my heater hose off the intake mani. one good way to really tell is it the heater gets cold under boost..... thats my 2 cents

nasteboyii

headgasket or cracked sleeve

i broke 2 stock sleeves this year making 590+ whp, evans tuned

i made 500 for 2 yrs no problems, turning up boost with bigger turbo stock sleeves didnt like it

i run b16a 10.6 cr, eagle rods/cp pistons, exactly what mine did on dyno, pushed out radiator coolant, also expended the radiator (almost ready to blow apart, was pretty neat in a not so good way)

anyway i wish u the best, hope its the headgasket, thats would be the easier fix for sure

if not sleeves are the answer, let us konw how it turns out

dan

agrn93ls

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jarven093 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ill put my money on the Intake manti. gasket..... i had that problem too the radiator filling with air and blowing up hoses caz the intake gasket was leaking into my heater hose off the intake mani. one good way to really tell is it the heater gets cold under boost..... thats my 2 cents </TD></TR></TABLE>


WOW interesting never thought of that and very possible but normally unlikely


i say you have a 90/10 chance leaning toward HG not sleeve.

you had a good tuner so chances of detonation were slim and unless you had super thin sleeves you probably fine. pull that head deck it, check the deck of the block get a stock HG and some arp's and TQ to 70-75 and go back

its somewhat possible the hose came off and the engine got super hot pretty quick and did the damage, or maybe the head lifted and blew the hose, who came first the chicken or the egg??? dont know keep us updated

ken00si

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sleepless247 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Alright Ken here it is. Your first intial pull netted you 277whp at an easy 7-9psi. This was done on the base map that got the car up and running. A few pulls later the car made 297whp at 9-10 psi. The run that made 341whp was done at 14psi. The A/F ratio was clean across the board and fine tuning was actually going to begin for the high boost setting. Dave wanted to do one more run to set the low boost setting @ 300whp. Thats when the lower radiator hose decided to let go. Were pretty sure its the head gasket(crosses fingers). The car was running so smooth there was no detonation, the a/f ratio looked good, and timing was on the money.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ok so I was a little off.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sleepless247 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">In the mean time you should find some OEM bumpers, OEM si lip kit, 15 or 16" wheels, JDM CTR headlights and a HID retro-kit. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Shiiiiit...let me pay off the $10k from the turbo build first!

Thanks again for the feedback guys

tony1

Honda headgaskets don't blow at 350whp unless you have a stripped stud or dropped sleeve. Odds are you have a cracked sleeve...

fmfkid250

or the head was warped and held for so long then finally let go...

the only thing you can do is tear it down and take look....

sleepless247

Whats funny is it has a cometic headgasket in it and ARP head studs. Were either gonna put in a .051 Cometic head gasket or go back to the .030 Head Gasket. I really like the nice smooth power band the higher comp. delivers.

I really don't like the way the stock IM studs work with the Hondata IM gasket. I believe extend intake manifold studs are in order.

MidwestAutoWorks

wahts the outcome