Sleeves or no Sleeves??
03-29-2006, 12:51 PM
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Sleeves or no Sleeves??
I'm building my B16 to bet boosted but was wondering if I will need to sleeve or not. I don't want to run more than 10lbs of boost, but my block will be bored 2 over?? Thanks
03-29-2006, 12:57 PM
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Re: Sleeves or no Sleeves?? (ttracing03)
Sleeving will depend on your HP numbers. Boost really doesn't have much to do with it.
I'll have Bauley move this to FI where the guys can explain it better.
I'll have Bauley move this to FI where the guys can explain it better.
03-29-2006, 04:00 PM
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Re: Sleeves or no Sleeves?? (ttracing03)
Thanks for the posts. I figured I would need sleeves for higher boost, just reallywanted to get the engine done..but I wanted to do it right...spend the money now to save time and money in the future! 
Thanks again
Thanks again
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03-30-2006, 08:22 AM
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Re: Sleeves or no Sleeves?? (nota-eg)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nota-eg »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sleeving will depend on your HP numbers. Boost really doesn't have much to do with it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'd say it has more to do with tuning, but you are correct saying the HP is what matters. What "psi" you run means nothing.
When boosting, the max you can bore out stock sleeves is .020 which would be 81.5mm. Stock B-series sleeves can handle 600+whp with a perfect tune, so anything less than 500whp I wouldn't worry about, if you have a good tune.
I'd say it has more to do with tuning, but you are correct saying the HP is what matters. What "psi" you run means nothing.
When boosting, the max you can bore out stock sleeves is .020 which would be 81.5mm. Stock B-series sleeves can handle 600+whp with a perfect tune, so anything less than 500whp I wouldn't worry about, if you have a good tune.
03-30-2006, 02:07 PM
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Re: Sleeves or no Sleeves?? (beerbongskickass)
i did that on 81.5mm stock sleeves, roughly 14-15 psi (in the 350whp ballpark), but i had my injectors maxxed out and then some.
for the peace of mind, i sleeved my block. now i know i can make 500+ with no problems if i get a bigger turbo
03-30-2006, 02:20 PM
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Re: Sleeves or no Sleeves?? (beerbongskickass)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beerbongskickass »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'd say it has more to do with tuning, but you are correct saying the HP is what matters. What "psi" you run means nothing.
When boosting, the max you can bore out stock sleeves is .020 which would be 81.5mm. Stock B-series sleeves can handle 600+whp with a perfect tune, so anything less than 500whp I wouldn't worry about, if you have a good tune.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Honestly.. stop telling people this-- you **** me off. Just because Bobby Jo and his mom can make 600WHP on stock sleeves and have it last a SEASON so far does not mean that a DD can handle this. These cars that you see pushing that much power on stock sleeves are not daily driven cars and daily beaten on. They see the drag strip and the occasional street race.
Everything you say is PURELY based on he said, she said. You have done NO independent research on it. According to you, if the tuning is perfect, then why can't you make 400-500WHP on 82mm if Bobby Jo can make 600WHP on 81.5mm? Oh wait.. you aren't smart enough to figure any of this out by yourself.
Do yourself a favor and stop giving advice.
To the poster: I would not feel safe on anything above 400WHP on stock sleeves-- even that is a bit heart pounding. 300-400 is a PROVEN number to last for a while on stock sleeves, while if you want anything more and want the engine to LAST, sleeve the block.
When boosting, the max you can bore out stock sleeves is .020 which would be 81.5mm. Stock B-series sleeves can handle 600+whp with a perfect tune, so anything less than 500whp I wouldn't worry about, if you have a good tune.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Honestly.. stop telling people this-- you **** me off. Just because Bobby Jo and his mom can make 600WHP on stock sleeves and have it last a SEASON so far does not mean that a DD can handle this. These cars that you see pushing that much power on stock sleeves are not daily driven cars and daily beaten on. They see the drag strip and the occasional street race.
Everything you say is PURELY based on he said, she said. You have done NO independent research on it. According to you, if the tuning is perfect, then why can't you make 400-500WHP on 82mm if Bobby Jo can make 600WHP on 81.5mm? Oh wait.. you aren't smart enough to figure any of this out by yourself.
Do yourself a favor and stop giving advice.
To the poster: I would not feel safe on anything above 400WHP on stock sleeves-- even that is a bit heart pounding. 300-400 is a PROVEN number to last for a while on stock sleeves, while if you want anything more and want the engine to LAST, sleeve the block.
03-30-2006, 02:25 PM
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Re: Sleeves or no Sleeves?? (ccivic)
Always sleeve it. yes it can be done with stock sleeves, but if one thing goes wrong it can turn a perfely good motor into a cracked sleeve.
03-30-2006, 02:58 PM
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Re: Sleeves or no Sleeves?? (ccivic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ccivic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Honestly.. stop telling people this-- you **** me off. Just because Bobby Jo and his mom can make 600WHP on stock sleeves and have it last a SEASON so far does not mean that a DD can handle this. These cars that you see pushing that much power on stock sleeves are not daily driven cars and daily beaten on. They see the drag strip and the occasional street race.
Everything you say is PURELY based on he said, she said. You have done NO independent research on it. According to you, if the tuning is perfect, then why can't you make 400-500WHP on 82mm if Bobby Jo can make 600WHP on 81.5mm? Oh wait.. you aren't smart enough to figure any of this out by yourself.
Do yourself a favor and stop giving advice.
To the poster: I would not feel safe on anything above 400WHP on stock sleeves-- even that is a bit heart pounding. 300-400 is a PROVEN number to last for a while on stock sleeves, while if you want anything more and want the engine to LAST, sleeve the block. </TD></TR></TABLE>
What experience do you have with it? You sound like the guy who does not wish to progress with the times.
Several years ago people said anything over300 whp on stock sleeves was crazy for a B-Series motor. Those same people were using FMU's for fuel amangement or AFC Hacks etc... With Hondata, Crome, Uberdata etc... becoming more and more main stream and with more and more people becoming better and more confident tuners, the threshhold has been raised for stock sleeves.
What BeerBong says is not inaccurate. He did say with a "Perfect Tune" you can achieve 600whp reliably. And he is correct. I think 100's of dyno passes and a season worth of quarter miles passes at 600whp on stock sleeves constitutes reliable.
Sure it is not daily driven but show me a 600whp B Series that is daily driven on pump gas......
All I am saying, is if you can afford to sleeve it then do. If you don't have the money for a sleeve that may fail down the road then sleeve your block. But don't say you can't do it reliably becasue you most definately can with a solid build and great tuner.
Honestly.. stop telling people this-- you **** me off. Just because Bobby Jo and his mom can make 600WHP on stock sleeves and have it last a SEASON so far does not mean that a DD can handle this. These cars that you see pushing that much power on stock sleeves are not daily driven cars and daily beaten on. They see the drag strip and the occasional street race.
Everything you say is PURELY based on he said, she said. You have done NO independent research on it. According to you, if the tuning is perfect, then why can't you make 400-500WHP on 82mm if Bobby Jo can make 600WHP on 81.5mm? Oh wait.. you aren't smart enough to figure any of this out by yourself.
Do yourself a favor and stop giving advice.
To the poster: I would not feel safe on anything above 400WHP on stock sleeves-- even that is a bit heart pounding. 300-400 is a PROVEN number to last for a while on stock sleeves, while if you want anything more and want the engine to LAST, sleeve the block. </TD></TR></TABLE>
What experience do you have with it? You sound like the guy who does not wish to progress with the times.
Several years ago people said anything over300 whp on stock sleeves was crazy for a B-Series motor. Those same people were using FMU's for fuel amangement or AFC Hacks etc... With Hondata, Crome, Uberdata etc... becoming more and more main stream and with more and more people becoming better and more confident tuners, the threshhold has been raised for stock sleeves.
What BeerBong says is not inaccurate. He did say with a "Perfect Tune" you can achieve 600whp reliably. And he is correct. I think 100's of dyno passes and a season worth of quarter miles passes at 600whp on stock sleeves constitutes reliable.
Sure it is not daily driven but show me a 600whp B Series that is daily driven on pump gas......
All I am saying, is if you can afford to sleeve it then do. If you don't have the money for a sleeve that may fail down the road then sleeve your block. But don't say you can't do it reliably becasue you most definately can with a solid build and great tuner.
03-30-2006, 03:07 PM
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Re: Sleeves or no Sleeves?? (asubennett)
When you get into that power range, you have pretty much no control over any margin of error. Theoretically, these engines could probably hold much more power than we are pushing on them, but when we get to reality, there are way too many things to go wrong. When we aren't pushing that much horsepower, we have a greater chance that if something does go wrong, nothing will happen. You get a bad batch of gas, and you'll be able to feel it-- your engine has enough strength left over to withstand it, whereas if you're pushing it to the limits, one mistake is all it takes and it's over.
I'm a realist. If I'm going to be daily driving my car, I don't want things that occur OFTEN in everyday life to blow my engine up.
Beerbong simply tells EVERYONE that hey.. up to 5-600WHP you're good to go! When this simply is not the truth-- there are WAYYYY too many variables to determine reliability on these engines when there is that much power being pushed. The cars that ARE being pushed to these limits are pretty much in a completely controlled environment-- there's not a lot that can go wrong. Whereas someone who just drives the car, and is not a tuner or an engineer cannot guarantee the safety of the engine like these guys (Jeff Evans, in particular, is who I know everyone is thinking).
I'm a realist. If I'm going to be daily driving my car, I don't want things that occur OFTEN in everyday life to blow my engine up.
Beerbong simply tells EVERYONE that hey.. up to 5-600WHP you're good to go! When this simply is not the truth-- there are WAYYYY too many variables to determine reliability on these engines when there is that much power being pushed. The cars that ARE being pushed to these limits are pretty much in a completely controlled environment-- there's not a lot that can go wrong. Whereas someone who just drives the car, and is not a tuner or an engineer cannot guarantee the safety of the engine like these guys (Jeff Evans, in particular, is who I know everyone is thinking).
03-30-2006, 03:20 PM
#15
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Okay im a bit confused over this topic.......
Say if your running a 350-400hp DD setup on stock sleeves and a sleeve lets go...... wouldnt it be because of a bad tune?? So regardless if you sleeve or not, a bad tune will destroy a motor right?
Id rather save the 1k-1500 and stick with stock sleeves for DD duties.......
If its a racecar and you have the funds by all means go for it........
Say if your running a 350-400hp DD setup on stock sleeves and a sleeve lets go...... wouldnt it be because of a bad tune?? So regardless if you sleeve or not, a bad tune will destroy a motor right?
Id rather save the 1k-1500 and stick with stock sleeves for DD duties.......
If its a racecar and you have the funds by all means go for it........
03-30-2006, 03:23 PM
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Re: Sleeves or no Sleeves?? (ccivic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ccivic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When you get into that power range, you have pretty much no control over any margin of error. Theoretically, these engines could probably hold much more power than we are pushing on them, but when we get to reality, there are way too many things to go wrong. When we aren't pushing that much horsepower, we have a greater chance that if something does go wrong, nothing will happen. You get a bad batch of gas, and you'll be able to feel it-- your engine has enough strength left over to withstand it, whereas if you're pushing it to the limits, one mistake is all it takes and it's over.
I'm a realist. If I'm going to be daily driving my car, I don't want things that occur OFTEN in everyday life to blow my engine up.
Beerbong simply tells EVERYONE that hey.. up to 5-600WHP you're good to go! When this simply is not the truth-- there are WAYYYY too many variables to determine reliability on these engines when there is that much power being pushed. The cars that ARE being pushed to these limits are pretty much in a completely controlled environment-- there's not a lot that can go wrong. Whereas someone who just drives the car, and is not a tuner or an engineer cannot guarantee the safety of the engine like these guys (Jeff Evans, in particular, is who I know everyone is thinking).</TD></TR></TABLE>
Not to nitpick but BeerBong said anyting less than 500whp your good. And I tend to agree with a solid tune. He used the logic that if stock sleeves can handle 600+ reiliably with a perfect tune then anything less 500 on a solid tune should be fine and he right.
Your are correct that the margin for error is less at higher HP levels but you can crack sleeves in the 280whp range if there is way to much timing added. Or if you too hto of plugs and get pre iginition.
Bottom line is if all the variables are correct stock sleeves can handle a lot.
Also with sleeved engines you get to worry about sleeves sinking or dropping or leaking from the bottom of the sleeve etc.....
For most daily driven turbo cars I prefer stock sleeves. If your going to compete in SFWD or race the car often or plan on pushing 600+ on the street all the time then sleeves are great. For the guy in this post, if he is only boring .020 then stick with your stock sleeves and invest the $1,000 for aftermarket sleeves into some injectors and a some type of EMS.
I'm a realist. If I'm going to be daily driving my car, I don't want things that occur OFTEN in everyday life to blow my engine up.
Beerbong simply tells EVERYONE that hey.. up to 5-600WHP you're good to go! When this simply is not the truth-- there are WAYYYY too many variables to determine reliability on these engines when there is that much power being pushed. The cars that ARE being pushed to these limits are pretty much in a completely controlled environment-- there's not a lot that can go wrong. Whereas someone who just drives the car, and is not a tuner or an engineer cannot guarantee the safety of the engine like these guys (Jeff Evans, in particular, is who I know everyone is thinking).</TD></TR></TABLE>
Not to nitpick but BeerBong said anyting less than 500whp your good. And I tend to agree with a solid tune. He used the logic that if stock sleeves can handle 600+ reiliably with a perfect tune then anything less 500 on a solid tune should be fine and he right.
Your are correct that the margin for error is less at higher HP levels but you can crack sleeves in the 280whp range if there is way to much timing added. Or if you too hto of plugs and get pre iginition.
Bottom line is if all the variables are correct stock sleeves can handle a lot.
Also with sleeved engines you get to worry about sleeves sinking or dropping or leaking from the bottom of the sleeve etc.....
For most daily driven turbo cars I prefer stock sleeves. If your going to compete in SFWD or race the car often or plan on pushing 600+ on the street all the time then sleeves are great. For the guy in this post, if he is only boring .020 then stick with your stock sleeves and invest the $1,000 for aftermarket sleeves into some injectors and a some type of EMS.
03-30-2006, 03:32 PM
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Re: Sleeves or no Sleeves?? (ttracing03)
Always sleeve the motor if you are not on a very tight budget... Seriously though, if you are on such a tight budget, you shouldn't be putting turbos and Hondas in the same sentence.
There are way too many factors that would affect how well your stock sleeves hold up. From the mileage on the block to how the engine was running before it was boosted to actual inconsitencies within the sleeves itself right from the factory, etc...
Sleeving the block will automatically give you a much larger margin of error. Tuning cannot always be perfect regardless of how good the tuner is. The tuner doesn't live in your glove box and cannot constantly tune your car with different weather or a **** tank of gas. Sleeving the block will take out one of the weakest link to your turbo setup.
There are way too many factors that would affect how well your stock sleeves hold up. From the mileage on the block to how the engine was running before it was boosted to actual inconsitencies within the sleeves itself right from the factory, etc...
Sleeving the block will automatically give you a much larger margin of error. Tuning cannot always be perfect regardless of how good the tuner is. The tuner doesn't live in your glove box and cannot constantly tune your car with different weather or a **** tank of gas. Sleeving the block will take out one of the weakest link to your turbo setup.
03-30-2006, 03:32 PM
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Re: Sleeves or no Sleeves?? (asubennett)
I've just seen, from experience, a lot of well-tuned turbo engines crack sleeves far before 5-600WHP. Beerbong gives his "logic" as a fact, not an opinion as well.. in multiple threads. I hate to see some kid trust him (who the hell is he to state these "facts" anyhow?) and end up wasting a lot of money because some kid on H-T said his engine could do 500WHP with a good tune no problem.
You guys only see what's on Honda-tech most of the time. I'm pretty good friends with one of the better tuners in the states, and with a few guys who built a pretty fair share of Cincy's high-powered Honda's from 1999+.. not to mention the countless people I personally know with high-hp Honda's, and I've seen a lot more than what's just on H-T, and let me tell you .. it's not pretty.
Don't let this board fool you, it shows only .1% of what's really out there.. if that.
You guys only see what's on Honda-tech most of the time. I'm pretty good friends with one of the better tuners in the states, and with a few guys who built a pretty fair share of Cincy's high-powered Honda's from 1999+.. not to mention the countless people I personally know with high-hp Honda's, and I've seen a lot more than what's just on H-T, and let me tell you .. it's not pretty.
Don't let this board fool you, it shows only .1% of what's really out there.. if that.
03-30-2006, 03:35 PM
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Re: Sleeves or no Sleeves?? (Arturbo)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Arturbo »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Always sleeve it. yes it can be done with stock sleeves, but if one thing goes wrong it can turn a perfely good motor into a cracked sleeve.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Listen to what she said.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tony the Tiger »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Always sleeve the motor if you are not on a very tight budget... Seriously though, if you are on such a tight budget, you shouldn't be putting turbos and Hondas in the same sentence.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
And also good advice. I don't care how much power you are making, if you have the engine out fork out the extra money and do it right. I have yet to touch a customers block that decided to stay with stock sleeves on a build.
I believe when he said 2 over he means 20 thou over, 81.5mm.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Listen to what she said.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tony the Tiger »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Always sleeve the motor if you are not on a very tight budget... Seriously though, if you are on such a tight budget, you shouldn't be putting turbos and Hondas in the same sentence.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
And also good advice. I don't care how much power you are making, if you have the engine out fork out the extra money and do it right. I have yet to touch a customers block that decided to stay with stock sleeves on a build.
I believe when he said 2 over he means 20 thou over, 81.5mm.
03-30-2006, 03:50 PM
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Re: Sleeves or no Sleeves?? (PrecisionH23a)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PrecisionH23a »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Listen to what she said.
And also good advice. I don't care how much power you are making, if you have the engine out fork out the extra money and do it right. I have yet to touch a customers block that decided to stay with stock sleeves on a build.
I believe when he said 2 over he means 20 thou over, 81.5mm.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I can't buy into something so universal as "Always Sleeve It." I'm sorry. A stock sleeved motor with pistons and rods and correct clearences with a solid tune can last as long as you want it to even at 400hp levels.
Listen to what she said.
And also good advice. I don't care how much power you are making, if you have the engine out fork out the extra money and do it right. I have yet to touch a customers block that decided to stay with stock sleeves on a build.
I believe when he said 2 over he means 20 thou over, 81.5mm.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I can't buy into something so universal as "Always Sleeve It." I'm sorry. A stock sleeved motor with pistons and rods and correct clearences with a solid tune can last as long as you want it to even at 400hp levels.
03-30-2006, 03:56 PM
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Re: Sleeves or no Sleeves?? (asubennett)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by asubennett »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I can't buy into something so universal as "Always Sleeve It." I'm sorry. A stock sleeved motor with pistons and rods and correct clearences with a solid tune can last as long as you want it to even at 400hp levels.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Then don't do it. I did not say it's not possible. I've had a customer come to me for a tune with a built bottom end minus sleeves... and it put out over 400 with no problems whatsoever. It's still running just fine to this date.
Boost is addictive... you will want more once you adjust to your current power level. I think 90% of the people on this board have already found that out.
Let's face it, in this game something always goes wrong. So you save $800 bucks for your build but what happens if **** goes south? You end up doing a complete REBUILD and in some cases your internals are completely fucked and you may even require a new block. So 800 bucks or 3000+... your choice.
I can't buy into something so universal as "Always Sleeve It." I'm sorry. A stock sleeved motor with pistons and rods and correct clearences with a solid tune can last as long as you want it to even at 400hp levels.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Then don't do it. I did not say it's not possible. I've had a customer come to me for a tune with a built bottom end minus sleeves... and it put out over 400 with no problems whatsoever. It's still running just fine to this date.
Boost is addictive... you will want more once you adjust to your current power level. I think 90% of the people on this board have already found that out.
Let's face it, in this game something always goes wrong. So you save $800 bucks for your build but what happens if **** goes south? You end up doing a complete REBUILD and in some cases your internals are completely fucked and you may even require a new block. So 800 bucks or 3000+... your choice.
03-30-2006, 03:59 PM
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Re: Sleeves or no Sleeves?? (asubennett)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by asubennett »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I can't buy into something so universal as "Always Sleeve It." I'm sorry. A stock sleeved motor with pistons and rods and correct clearences with a solid tune can last as long as you want it to even at 400hp levels.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Then continue to gamble with inconsistencies within the factory sleeves. You can also gamble on how solid the tuning is, you know, the tuner can also dictate what kind of gas you end up getting at your local pump, right
I can't buy into something so universal as "Always Sleeve It." I'm sorry. A stock sleeved motor with pistons and rods and correct clearences with a solid tune can last as long as you want it to even at 400hp levels.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Then continue to gamble with inconsistencies within the factory sleeves. You can also gamble on how solid the tuning is, you know, the tuner can also dictate what kind of gas you end up getting at your local pump, right
03-30-2006, 04:12 PM
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Re: Sleeves or no Sleeves?? (Tony the Tiger)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tony the Tiger »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Then continue to gamble with inconsistencies within the factory sleeves. You can also gamble on how solid the tuning is, you know, the tuner can also dictate what kind of gas you end up getting at your local pump, right</TD></TR></TABLE>
So let me get this straight.....
If I buy a sleeved block I will always be guaranteed good gas..???
Come on guys, if you get a batch of bad gas even in a sleeved motor, if you are pushing the limits of pump gas, a piston or four will have a nice hole in it. Sleeved or not.
And in regards to factory inconsistencies in castings I would venture to say that sleeved blocks offer just as many problems. How many times have heard of sleeves slipping, sinking, parting. Constant head gasket problems etc..... If the person is on a budget I will argue all day that the money for sleeves could be better spent on injectors, EMS, etc..... If they can afford all of it then yes buy sleeves. Why not. But they are FAR from required or necessary at all times. Boosting any Honda engine is a gamble to a certain degree.
Any one who says sleeve it or else your gambling comes across as someone trying to create increased percieved value in a product.
Then continue to gamble with inconsistencies within the factory sleeves. You can also gamble on how solid the tuning is, you know, the tuner can also dictate what kind of gas you end up getting at your local pump, right
</TD></TR></TABLE>So let me get this straight.....
If I buy a sleeved block I will always be guaranteed good gas..???
Come on guys, if you get a batch of bad gas even in a sleeved motor, if you are pushing the limits of pump gas, a piston or four will have a nice hole in it. Sleeved or not.
And in regards to factory inconsistencies in castings I would venture to say that sleeved blocks offer just as many problems. How many times have heard of sleeves slipping, sinking, parting. Constant head gasket problems etc..... If the person is on a budget I will argue all day that the money for sleeves could be better spent on injectors, EMS, etc..... If they can afford all of it then yes buy sleeves. Why not. But they are FAR from required or necessary at all times. Boosting any Honda engine is a gamble to a certain degree.
Any one who says sleeve it or else your gambling comes across as someone trying to create increased percieved value in a product.
03-30-2006, 04:21 PM
#24
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Re: Sleeves or no Sleeves?? (Tony the Tiger)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tony the Tiger »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Then continue to gamble with inconsistencies within the factory sleeves. You can also gamble on how solid the tuning is, you know, the tuner can also dictate what kind of gas you end up getting at your local pump, right </TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't agree. I'd trust Honda's manufacturing more than half the people sleeving motors. What happened over the last 3-4 years? 3-4 years ago tons of sleeving companies were around. Then the sleeves would fail! This is where the whole "go stock sleeves fad" started. People got sick of aftermarket sleeves failing, so what was the point of sleeving? Things have changed on both fronts. Aftermarket sleeves have gotten better, but also people have been just tuning better as said above. So really, should I trust some dude who assembles blocks or honda's manufacturing process? There is a reason why we do mass manufacturing. Repeatable results. Not saying some individuals arent very consistent, but it takes more time and effort for them to be more consistent. Its also rare to find someone like that.
People are neglecting to mention the true reason why people run aftermarket sleeves.
1) They are able to run at higher cylinder pressures without failure.
2) They prevent shaking/shifting at higher rpm/cylinder pressures
3) Bigger bore aka more torque
If you are able to run stock sleeves below the threshold of the max cylinder pressure, by all means do so. The thing is when detonation occurs, cylinder pressure peaks, and destroys the sleeves. On an aftermarket sleeve, when that peak occurs, it might still be below the threshold of the sleeves and not cause any damage. The rest of the engine will be toast most likely, but the sleeves will be okay.
If anything the line is very blurry. I think most will agree that the blurry line is at about 500whp. More power than that, its risky. Less power than that, its safer. Take that for what its worth. If you have $1000, and can't figure out something better to spend it on or you REALLY think that it will be necessary, sleeve. If neither of those are the case, then don't sleeve. Just make sure you are aware of the potential of failure.
</TD></TR></TABLE>I don't agree. I'd trust Honda's manufacturing more than half the people sleeving motors. What happened over the last 3-4 years? 3-4 years ago tons of sleeving companies were around. Then the sleeves would fail! This is where the whole "go stock sleeves fad" started. People got sick of aftermarket sleeves failing, so what was the point of sleeving? Things have changed on both fronts. Aftermarket sleeves have gotten better, but also people have been just tuning better as said above. So really, should I trust some dude who assembles blocks or honda's manufacturing process? There is a reason why we do mass manufacturing. Repeatable results. Not saying some individuals arent very consistent, but it takes more time and effort for them to be more consistent. Its also rare to find someone like that.
People are neglecting to mention the true reason why people run aftermarket sleeves.
1) They are able to run at higher cylinder pressures without failure.
2) They prevent shaking/shifting at higher rpm/cylinder pressures
3) Bigger bore aka more torque
If you are able to run stock sleeves below the threshold of the max cylinder pressure, by all means do so. The thing is when detonation occurs, cylinder pressure peaks, and destroys the sleeves. On an aftermarket sleeve, when that peak occurs, it might still be below the threshold of the sleeves and not cause any damage. The rest of the engine will be toast most likely, but the sleeves will be okay.
If anything the line is very blurry. I think most will agree that the blurry line is at about 500whp. More power than that, its risky. Less power than that, its safer. Take that for what its worth. If you have $1000, and can't figure out something better to spend it on or you REALLY think that it will be necessary, sleeve. If neither of those are the case, then don't sleeve. Just make sure you are aware of the potential of failure.
03-30-2006, 05:21 PM
#25
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Re: Sleeves or no Sleeves?? (asubennett)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by asubennett »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
So let me get this straight.....
If I buy a sleeved block I will always be guaranteed good gas..???
Come on guys, if you get a batch of bad gas even in a sleeved motor, if you are pushing the limits of pump gas, a piston or four will have a nice hole in it. Sleeved or not.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
You obviously still do not get it...
If I wanted to run 300WHP, that's no where near the limits of pump gas. You hit a tank of bad gas and I can assure you those stock sleeves are going to crack. Stock sleeves are simply not tolerant to ANY forms of detonation. Now with a sleeved block at 300WHP, even with a tank of bad gas, it gives the engine much more tolerance to detonation. If you knew what I meant eliminating the next weakest link, then you should understand by now.
So let me get this straight.....
If I buy a sleeved block I will always be guaranteed good gas..???
Come on guys, if you get a batch of bad gas even in a sleeved motor, if you are pushing the limits of pump gas, a piston or four will have a nice hole in it. Sleeved or not.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
You obviously still do not get it...
If I wanted to run 300WHP, that's no where near the limits of pump gas. You hit a tank of bad gas and I can assure you those stock sleeves are going to crack. Stock sleeves are simply not tolerant to ANY forms of detonation. Now with a sleeved block at 300WHP, even with a tank of bad gas, it gives the engine much more tolerance to detonation. If you knew what I meant eliminating the next weakest link, then you should understand by now.