SCE gaskets!!
11-12-2006, 02:26 PM
#1
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: missouri
Posts: 4,009
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SCE gaskets!!
well as some may know ive been having problems with my head sealing under high boost. it is pushing coolant. runs fine for about 40 or so miles and then it happens..
step decked sleeves, dry oem gasket, arp head studs, freshly milled head.
was told to try using some hylomar on my oem gasket. im going to try that. but was wondering if anyone has ever used a sce headgasket. specifically the ICS titan headgasket for a d-series? says it needs no orings or sealant.. looks pretty damn nice. they just came out with this not to long ago.. check it out here.
SCE ICS Titan Self Sealing:
The ICS Titan is better than Multi Layer Steel.
Typical MLS head gaskets can leak combustion pressure between gasket layers, block and cylinder head.
The New ICS TITAN Features:
Integral Combustion Seal
Built in Coolant Sealing
Solid Metal Construction
Benefits of ICS TITAN:
No Machining Required
No Messy Sealants
No Layers, No Leaks
http://www.scegaskets.com/products/ics.html
and here, page 44
http://www.scegaskets.com/pdf/SCE%20Catalog.pdf
http://www.hylomar.com/
http://www.hylomar-usa.com
step decked sleeves, dry oem gasket, arp head studs, freshly milled head.
was told to try using some hylomar on my oem gasket. im going to try that. but was wondering if anyone has ever used a sce headgasket. specifically the ICS titan headgasket for a d-series? says it needs no orings or sealant.. looks pretty damn nice. they just came out with this not to long ago.. check it out here.
SCE ICS Titan Self Sealing:
The ICS Titan is better than Multi Layer Steel.
Typical MLS head gaskets can leak combustion pressure between gasket layers, block and cylinder head.
The New ICS TITAN Features:
Integral Combustion Seal
Built in Coolant Sealing
Solid Metal Construction
Benefits of ICS TITAN:
No Machining Required
No Messy Sealants
No Layers, No Leaks
http://www.scegaskets.com/products/ics.html
and here, page 44
http://www.scegaskets.com/pdf/SCE%20Catalog.pdf
http://www.hylomar.com/
http://www.hylomar-usa.com
am i going to be the guinea pig for the SCE ICS gasket??
11-12-2006, 06:27 PM
#6
Honda-Tech Member
Re: (mike93eh2)
If it were me, I would mill the block flat and with as smooth a finish as possible. All the engineering articles I have read claim that a MLS gasket is stronger than a copper gasket. Sometimes a raised sleeve can cause the head to warp as something has to give and it can't be anything made of steel.
The copper gaskets seal combustion well but do not seal liquids, especially when they are cold. Top fuel cars can use copper as they run the blocks dry. They can also re-use them, which is nice.
I have never tried a copper gasket but I don't believe it when SCE says that MLS gaskets leak combustion between the layers. The engineers at Cometic told me that the middle layer of a MLS actually works like a spring to hold combustion if you ever lift your head.
The copper gaskets seal combustion well but do not seal liquids, especially when they are cold. Top fuel cars can use copper as they run the blocks dry. They can also re-use them, which is nice.
I have never tried a copper gasket but I don't believe it when SCE says that MLS gaskets leak combustion between the layers. The engineers at Cometic told me that the middle layer of a MLS actually works like a spring to hold combustion if you ever lift your head.
11-12-2006, 06:34 PM
#7
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: missouri
Posts: 4,009
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (earl)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by earl »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If it were me, I would mill the block flat and with as smooth a finish as possible. All the engineering articles I have read claim that a MLS gasket is stronger than a copper gasket. Sometimes a raised sleeve can cause the head to warp as something has to give and it can't be anything made of steel.
The copper gaskets seal combustion well but do not seal liquids, especially when they are cold. Top fuel cars can use copper as they run the blocks dry. They can also re-use them, which is nice.
I have never tried a copper gasket but I don't believe it when SCE says that MLS gaskets leak combustion between the layers. The engineers at Cometic told me that the middle layer of a MLS actually works like a spring to hold combustion if you ever lift your head. </TD></TR></TABLE>
did you look at the link? its not just a ordinary copper gasket. its self sealing and also has seals around all coolant holes, etc. check the ics titan gasket out
and mls gaskets DO leak between each gasket. i have a couple oem gaskets sitting here to prove it. you can definetly see it was leaking on every cylinder on the intake side between EVERY layer, top and bottom.
i have a new oem gasket sitting here and some hylomar racing formula. im going to give that a shot and see what it does. but i have a feeling im going to have to use the hylomar between each layer.
The copper gaskets seal combustion well but do not seal liquids, especially when they are cold. Top fuel cars can use copper as they run the blocks dry. They can also re-use them, which is nice.
I have never tried a copper gasket but I don't believe it when SCE says that MLS gaskets leak combustion between the layers. The engineers at Cometic told me that the middle layer of a MLS actually works like a spring to hold combustion if you ever lift your head. </TD></TR></TABLE>
did you look at the link? its not just a ordinary copper gasket. its self sealing and also has seals around all coolant holes, etc. check the ics titan gasket out
and mls gaskets DO leak between each gasket. i have a couple oem gaskets sitting here to prove it. you can definetly see it was leaking on every cylinder on the intake side between EVERY layer, top and bottom.
i have a new oem gasket sitting here and some hylomar racing formula. im going to give that a shot and see what it does. but i have a feeling im going to have to use the hylomar between each layer.
Trending Topics
11-12-2006, 06:47 PM
#8
Honda-Tech Member
Re: (mike93eh2)
Do what you want but the only way a gasket can leak is if there is a low spot between the head and the block. Putting some junk between the layers won't make a difference.
Too many people use MLS gaskets successfully to blame the gasket. However, MLS gaskets were not really made for step decks so maybe a copper gasket will work for you if you don't want to surface your block.
Too many people use MLS gaskets successfully to blame the gasket. However, MLS gaskets were not really made for step decks so maybe a copper gasket will work for you if you don't want to surface your block.
11-12-2006, 06:55 PM
#9
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: missouri
Posts: 4,009
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (earl)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by earl »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do what you want but the only way a gasket can leak is if there is a low spot between the head and the block. Putting some junk between the layers won't make a difference.
Too many people use MLS gaskets successfully to blame the gasket. However, MLS gaskets were not really made for step decks so maybe a copper gasket will work for you if you don't want to surface your block.</TD></TR></TABLE>
ahh, i was told by my tuner that it would make a difference. hmm
what do you mean by low spot with my setup? pushes coolant at high boost in every cylinder on the intake side. all identical. btw this is a 400whp d16
im not blaming the gasket though. I KNOW oem can hold way more pwoer than my setup is making, but i dont know what else could be wrong. just looking for a fix. and dont want to take the block that i just put in back out to have machined. work was done by a very reputable business on here.
Too many people use MLS gaskets successfully to blame the gasket. However, MLS gaskets were not really made for step decks so maybe a copper gasket will work for you if you don't want to surface your block.</TD></TR></TABLE>
ahh, i was told by my tuner that it would make a difference. hmm
what do you mean by low spot with my setup? pushes coolant at high boost in every cylinder on the intake side. all identical. btw this is a 400whp d16
im not blaming the gasket though. I KNOW oem can hold way more pwoer than my setup is making, but i dont know what else could be wrong. just looking for a fix. and dont want to take the block that i just put in back out to have machined. work was done by a very reputable business on here.
11-13-2006, 04:40 AM
#10
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: tx, USA
Posts: 1,131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK dumb question, but something you jsut stated triggered somethign in my head.
you realise the intake has water ports too right? liek next to the water neck? if your intake to surface is not flat and smooth too and free to crud (old gaskets material, olg sealant, dirt etc.) then it's possible to have the leaking commign form the intake mani gasket itself. what coudl be happennign is it'sblowing the water out under boost, then suckign it back up into the intake and then pputhis it to all the cyclinders. It actually happened to me once when i let a cheap shop repale the intake gasket because iw as in the middle of moving and it was leaking ont he outside section. (goes back tot he golden rule. if you want something done right, you do it yourself).
may not be the issue here, but jsut putting a differnet idea in your head. (also along with this, if the intake is not flat on the gasket side, could be same issue.
tb could be leaking and water in to the inside under boost (if you have te water lines sitll hooked up to it)
liek i said I'm jsut trying to think outside the nrom here.
as it's been stated, if yuor deck is off, no mater what you shove on it, it's not going to seal. get the bkock re-decked, the head touched to you knwo it's dead nuts on, and hten retry a new gasket. Finally last of all, make darn you asure follow the helmd manual when tightening the head down. if you do it wrong, it could cause the head to seat incorrectly and this lead to leaking or worse, warpage.
good luck man.
you realise the intake has water ports too right? liek next to the water neck? if your intake to surface is not flat and smooth too and free to crud (old gaskets material, olg sealant, dirt etc.) then it's possible to have the leaking commign form the intake mani gasket itself. what coudl be happennign is it'sblowing the water out under boost, then suckign it back up into the intake and then pputhis it to all the cyclinders. It actually happened to me once when i let a cheap shop repale the intake gasket because iw as in the middle of moving and it was leaking ont he outside section. (goes back tot he golden rule. if you want something done right, you do it yourself).
may not be the issue here, but jsut putting a differnet idea in your head. (also along with this, if the intake is not flat on the gasket side, could be same issue.
tb could be leaking and water in to the inside under boost (if you have te water lines sitll hooked up to it)
liek i said I'm jsut trying to think outside the nrom here.
as it's been stated, if yuor deck is off, no mater what you shove on it, it's not going to seal. get the bkock re-decked, the head touched to you knwo it's dead nuts on, and hten retry a new gasket. Finally last of all, make darn you asure follow the helmd manual when tightening the head down. if you do it wrong, it could cause the head to seat incorrectly and this lead to leaking or worse, warpage.
good luck man.
11-13-2006, 04:45 AM
#11
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: missouri
Posts: 4,009
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (oscarmayer)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by oscarmayer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">OK DUMB QUESTION, BUT SOMETHING</TD></TR></TABLE>
huh?
huh?
11-13-2006, 03:56 PM
#13
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: missouri
Posts: 4,009
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (oscarmayer)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by oscarmayer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">OK dumb question, but something you jsut stated triggered somethign in my head.
you realise the intake has water ports too right? liek next to the water neck? if your intake to surface is not flat and smooth too and free to crud (old gaskets material, olg sealant, dirt etc.) then it's possible to have the leaking commign form the intake mani gasket itself. what coudl be happennign is it'sblowing the water out under boost, then suckign it back up into the intake and then pputhis it to all the cyclinders. It actually happened to me once when i let a cheap shop repale the intake gasket because iw as in the middle of moving and it was leaking ont he outside section. (goes back tot he golden rule. if you want something done right, you do it yourself).
may not be the issue here, but jsut putting a differnet idea in your head. (also along with this, if the intake is not flat on the gasket side, could be same issue.
tb could be leaking and water in to the inside under boost (if you have te water lines sitll hooked up to it)
liek i said I'm jsut trying to think outside the nrom here.
as it's been stated, if yuor deck is off, no mater what you shove on it, it's not going to seal. get the bkock re-decked, the head touched to you knwo it's dead nuts on, and hten retry a new gasket. Finally last of all, make darn you asure follow the helmd manual when tightening the head down. if you do it wrong, it could cause the head to seat incorrectly and this lead to leaking or worse, warpage.
good luck man.</TD></TR></TABLE>
hmm thats a good idea. didnt think of that.. but wouldnt it leak out the sides though also? i mean what are the odds the intake gasket would leak into the water hole in it before just leaking out the sides? im actually using a hondata thermal intake gasket. its completely dry also. have those been proven on high boost applications?? but i dont know.. you can definetly see on the head gasket where it is leaking in every cylinder though.
i know im doing everything right. ive done close to 100 head gaskets on various cars before. i work at a speed shop. hondas are nothing new to me.
taking the block out and disassembling it is out of the question right now. i just put it in. everything is brand new. exospeed did all the work. they step decked it and i didnt even know they did. its so miniscal you cant tell by the naked eye. im hopign this hylomar will work but im gonna take a close look at the intake gasket also.
you realise the intake has water ports too right? liek next to the water neck? if your intake to surface is not flat and smooth too and free to crud (old gaskets material, olg sealant, dirt etc.) then it's possible to have the leaking commign form the intake mani gasket itself. what coudl be happennign is it'sblowing the water out under boost, then suckign it back up into the intake and then pputhis it to all the cyclinders. It actually happened to me once when i let a cheap shop repale the intake gasket because iw as in the middle of moving and it was leaking ont he outside section. (goes back tot he golden rule. if you want something done right, you do it yourself).
may not be the issue here, but jsut putting a differnet idea in your head. (also along with this, if the intake is not flat on the gasket side, could be same issue.
tb could be leaking and water in to the inside under boost (if you have te water lines sitll hooked up to it)
liek i said I'm jsut trying to think outside the nrom here.
as it's been stated, if yuor deck is off, no mater what you shove on it, it's not going to seal. get the bkock re-decked, the head touched to you knwo it's dead nuts on, and hten retry a new gasket. Finally last of all, make darn you asure follow the helmd manual when tightening the head down. if you do it wrong, it could cause the head to seat incorrectly and this lead to leaking or worse, warpage.
good luck man.</TD></TR></TABLE>
hmm thats a good idea. didnt think of that.. but wouldnt it leak out the sides though also? i mean what are the odds the intake gasket would leak into the water hole in it before just leaking out the sides? im actually using a hondata thermal intake gasket. its completely dry also. have those been proven on high boost applications?? but i dont know.. you can definetly see on the head gasket where it is leaking in every cylinder though.
i know im doing everything right. ive done close to 100 head gaskets on various cars before. i work at a speed shop. hondas are nothing new to me.
taking the block out and disassembling it is out of the question right now. i just put it in. everything is brand new. exospeed did all the work. they step decked it and i didnt even know they did. its so miniscal you cant tell by the naked eye. im hopign this hylomar will work but im gonna take a close look at the intake gasket also.
11-13-2006, 06:10 PM
#14
Junior Member
Re: SCE gaskets!! (mike93eh2)
whats going on every one??
well i am running a sce gasket too but my is an all motor set up. the sce gasket i was running blow after one moth of normal driving so i did not thank twice of it so i got another one. this other sce lasted about 3 moths its doing the same thing so i am just going to just stick with oem or cometic gaskets.
one thing about thing hole thing is a good friend of my thats used to race circle track he trayed to worn me about copper head gasket but i did not want to listen and now two head gasket later
well i am running a sce gasket too but my is an all motor set up. the sce gasket i was running blow after one moth of normal driving so i did not thank twice of it so i got another one. this other sce lasted about 3 moths its doing the same thing so i am just going to just stick with oem or cometic gaskets.
one thing about thing hole thing is a good friend of my thats used to race circle track he trayed to worn me about copper head gasket but i did not want to listen and now two head gasket later
11-13-2006, 07:24 PM
#15
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: missouri
Posts: 4,009
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: SCE gaskets!! (civicsit)
well was your block or head o-ringed or step decked? did you use any sealant on the copper gasket. you have to do those things to use a copper gasket.
11-13-2006, 08:39 PM
#16
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: missouri
Posts: 4,009
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (earl)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by earl »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The copper gaskets seal combustion well but do not seal liquids, especially when they are cold.</TD></TR></TABLE>
well youre suppose to use a sealant on copper gaskets. are you saying coppergaskets that have been properly sealed do not seal liquids?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by earl »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I have never tried a copper gasket but I don't believe it when SCE says that MLS gaskets leak combustion between the layers. The engineers at Cometic told me that the middle layer of a MLS actually works like a spring to hold combustion if you ever lift your head. </TD></TR></TABLE>
i have a couple gaskets sitting here that prove otherwise that they do infact leak combustion between every layer. let me know if you need pics.
The copper gaskets seal combustion well but do not seal liquids, especially when they are cold.</TD></TR></TABLE>
well youre suppose to use a sealant on copper gaskets. are you saying coppergaskets that have been properly sealed do not seal liquids?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by earl »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I have never tried a copper gasket but I don't believe it when SCE says that MLS gaskets leak combustion between the layers. The engineers at Cometic told me that the middle layer of a MLS actually works like a spring to hold combustion if you ever lift your head. </TD></TR></TABLE>
i have a couple gaskets sitting here that prove otherwise that they do infact leak combustion between every layer. let me know if you need pics.
11-14-2006, 04:28 AM
#19
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: tx, USA
Posts: 1,131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i personally woudl never use a copper gasket on a street car of any kind. they work great on the older cast iron stuff and track usage, but for out little imports to me they have always jsut been a burden. I don't know anyone running a copper one that has nad any good luck with it. Hell I admit, I've tried running one once, and it didn't work out too well. So this comes from expirnece. (b18b motor)
anyway, i recommend staying away from the copper ones, and getting your entire setup decked flat. i mean every sealing surface. then use a cometic (i haveo ne on my 400+ hp street car) and i have not had any issues. it all comes down to was the block properly prepped.
also stepped block do nothing but cause problems. do not step your block. deck it flat and go from there. Even sec will tell you this.
hell i still have in the box sealed the forst prototype of the self sealing gasket frm sec that I never used on this setup. Once it didn't work on the other setup, we droppe the idea on mine too.
anyway, i recommend staying away from the copper ones, and getting your entire setup decked flat. i mean every sealing surface. then use a cometic (i haveo ne on my 400+ hp street car) and i have not had any issues. it all comes down to was the block properly prepped.
also stepped block do nothing but cause problems. do not step your block. deck it flat and go from there. Even sec will tell you this.
hell i still have in the box sealed the forst prototype of the self sealing gasket frm sec that I never used on this setup. Once it didn't work on the other setup, we droppe the idea on mine too.
11-14-2006, 05:00 AM
#20
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (oscarmayer)
Here's a question,how many times have you torqued your head studs. Because they do stretch a good bit after a few cycles. trust me, I kept on poppin' gaskets and then one day I looked and the head studs and they were about a 1/4 of an inch longer than a new set. Put in some fresh studs, re-oringed the block and threw a new COMETIC gasket on and problem solved.
Justin
Justin
11-14-2006, 08:59 AM
#21
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Russian Mafia, dont, provoke, me
Posts: 1,582
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: SCE gaskets!! (mike93eh2)
I use a sce copper with no problems, you need to prepare to use them properly and call arp before using them and teel them what bolts and lube and copper thickness and they will give you a correct torque value- i had to go from 65 to 95 with my setup as the copper creushes before it seals. also I have my head oringed with SS wire, also after every use of the copper head gasket it is important to clean it well and anneal it in the oven to soften it. i clean with abrasive free cloths and alcohol. also make sure to use a nice even coat of copper spray, hylomar is messy and in my experience to difficult to apply uniformly.
11-14-2006, 04:11 PM
#22
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: missouri
Posts: 4,009
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
see i knew copper gaskets were good. its just that people dont know how to use them properly.
also can anyone give me a exact reason as to why step decking is not good? why would exospeed do that if its bad? i dont get it. how could step decking be the cause of my problem of pushing coolant?
also can anyone give me a exact reason as to why step decking is not good? why would exospeed do that if its bad? i dont get it. how could step decking be the cause of my problem of pushing coolant?
11-14-2006, 05:40 PM
#23
Junior Member
Re: (mike93eh2)
my block was not o ringed or stepped deck. i was trying the ics titan head gasket witch you do not need a o-ring or step deck. i was buying the sce head gasket for a nos set up that i was going to run next yr at a few races ad i was hopping to run it with a turbo set up too. maybe its my bad luck with just sce gasket.
but if any one is having good luck with the ics gacket from sce tell me what your secret is i need it.
but if any one is having good luck with the ics gacket from sce tell me what your secret is i need it.
11-14-2006, 05:59 PM
#24
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: missouri
Posts: 4,009
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (civicsit)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civicsit »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">my block was not o ringed or stepped deck. i was trying the ics titan head gasket witch you do not need a o-ring or step deck. i was buying the sce head gasket for a nos set up that i was going to run next yr at a few races ad i was hopping to run it with a turbo set up too. maybe its my bad luck with just sce gasket.
but if any one is having good luck with the ics gacket from sce tell me what your secret is i need it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
was your block and head straight? you put any sealant on it? (i know it says it doesnt need any)
but if any one is having good luck with the ics gacket from sce tell me what your secret is i need it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
was your block and head straight? you put any sealant on it? (i know it says it doesnt need any)
11-14-2006, 06:56 PM
#25
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Houston, TX, US
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (mike93eh2)
I've probably built and assembled about thirty motors with copper head gaskets (mostly chevy v8's). With a normal copper gasket it is a must to o-ring the block with stainless wire and leave it sticking up about .012" to .015" and receiver groove the head as well. I personally like to coat the entire gasket with a thin layer of Yamabond or Hondabond as well to prevent coolant leaks. It is also important to retorque the head after the motor has warmed up as well. In my opinion copper gaskets are just a pain in the *** to properly install. I don't use them unless the customer really wants me to. I haven't had a chance to use the self sealing copper gasket yet.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
