Which is Safter, 8psi on t3/t4 or 15psi on T3
10-25-2004, 11:26 AM
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Which is Safter, 8psi on t3/t4 or 15psi on T3
My dyno sucked. i have a 50 trim T3. To get my 250whp goal i'm going to have to run about 15psi to get into my compressor map efficiency so that i won't fall out of boost like i am right now at 9psi. So i ask you....
What does detenation/and ring cracking count on, the cfm that the turbo is pushing or the psi that the cylinder walls are occuring at.
Should i buy a 57 trim t3/t4 and run low boost and make my power
or
should i keep my turbo and run higher psi and make my power
which one is safer. thanks for the replys guys
current setup dyno
What does detenation/and ring cracking count on, the cfm that the turbo is pushing or the psi that the cylinder walls are occuring at.
Should i buy a 57 trim t3/t4 and run low boost and make my power
or
should i keep my turbo and run higher psi and make my power
which one is safer. thanks for the replys guys
current setup dyno
10-25-2004, 11:40 AM
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Re: Which is Safter, 8psi on t3/t4 or 15psi on T3 (Del_Slowest)
The engine doesn't care about psi, only horsepower. 250whp at 9psi won't be any safer than 250whp at 15psi.
10-25-2004, 11:48 AM
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Re: Which is Safter, 8psi on t3/t4 or 15psi on T3 (RyanCivic2000)
10-25-2004, 12:02 PM
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Re: Which is Safter, 8psi on t3/t4 or 15psi on T3 (RyanCivic2000)
Granted horsepower plays the biggest role, I am not so sure you should ignore boost pressure completely. I'd much rather run 8psi off a turbo, then make the same power running 15psi off of another. The added pressure will still add more stress to your motor, so it should still be put into consideration. I've tuned a friend's LS /w a t25 setup and one of his stock sleeves cracked at 17psi and he was only making around 275whp. Now I seriously doubt he would have cracked a sleeve with a t3/t04e and 9psi making the same power...
10-25-2004, 12:12 PM
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Re: Which is Safter, 8psi on t3/t4 or 15psi on T3 (PureTeg420)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PureTeg420 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Granted horsepower plays the biggest role, I am not so sure you should ignore boost pressure completely. I'd much rather run 8psi off a turbo, then make the same power running 15psi off of another. The added pressure will still add more stress to your motor, so it should still be put into consideration. I've tuned a friend's LS /w a t25 setup and one of his stock sleeves cracked at 17psi and he was only making around 275whp. Now I seriously doubt he would have cracked a sleeve with a t3/t04e and 9psi making the same power...</TD></TR></TABLE>
I will have to counter your argument and estimate that the reason why your friends motor blew is probably due to the compressor running out of efficiency, thus leading to very high air intake temps, leading to detonation.
I'm not a physics expert by any means, I'm just going by what I've experienced with these motors after the last several years.
I do agree with you that if your friend ran a larger turbo at 9psi to make the same 275whp he probably wouldn't have blown up, but I don't relate that to cylinder pressure, I relate it to cooler boost temperatures from a more efficient turbo.
Anyone care to add to this?
I will have to counter your argument and estimate that the reason why your friends motor blew is probably due to the compressor running out of efficiency, thus leading to very high air intake temps, leading to detonation.
I'm not a physics expert by any means, I'm just going by what I've experienced with these motors after the last several years.
I do agree with you that if your friend ran a larger turbo at 9psi to make the same 275whp he probably wouldn't have blown up, but I don't relate that to cylinder pressure, I relate it to cooler boost temperatures from a more efficient turbo.
Anyone care to add to this?
10-25-2004, 12:12 PM
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Re: Which is Safter, 8psi on t3/t4 or 15psi on T3 (PureTeg420)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PureTeg420 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Granted horsepower plays the biggest role, I am not so sure you should ignore boost pressure completely. I'd much rather run 8psi off a turbo, then make the same power running 15psi off of another. The added pressure will still add more stress to your motor, so it should still be put into consideration. I've tuned a friend's LS /w a t25 setup and one of his stock sleeves cracked at 17psi and he was only making around 275whp. Now I seriously doubt he would have cracked a sleeve with a t3/t04e and 9psi making the same power...</TD></TR></TABLE>
he makes a good point. upgrade the turbo.
he makes a good point. upgrade the turbo.
10-25-2004, 12:20 PM
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Re: Which is Safter, 8psi on t3/t4 or 15psi on T3 (HybridKOOP)
Let me just mention that I tuned his car with hondata, and we were able to view the Intake temps via hondalogger. Temps were considered a little high, but nothing to introduce detonation. I checked out the internals when he tore it down and the pistons didn't show signs of detonation. It's tough to say what really went on, because I was not with him when it blew, but he had a wb02 and an EGT guage and said everything was in check. I'm still pretty convinced it was just a case of too much pressure, and his heavy foot 
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10-25-2004, 12:58 PM
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Re: Which is Safter, 8psi on t3/t4 or 15psi on T3 (PureTeg420)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PureTeg420 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Granted horsepower plays the biggest role, I am not so sure you should ignore boost pressure completely. I'd much rather run 8psi off a turbo, then make the same power running 15psi off of another. The added pressure will still add more stress to your motor, so it should still be put into consideration. I've tuned a friend's LS /w a t25 setup and one of his stock sleeves cracked at 17psi and he was only making around 275whp. Now I seriously doubt he would have cracked a sleeve with a t3/t04e and 9psi making the same power...</TD></TR></TABLE>
17psi does not add any extra stress to the internals. Only horsepower and torque will add extra stress. The engine does not give one **** whether you have 250whp at 9 psi or 17 psi.
17psi does not add any extra stress to the internals. Only horsepower and torque will add extra stress. The engine does not give one **** whether you have 250whp at 9 psi or 17 psi.
10-25-2004, 01:20 PM
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Re: Which is Safter, 8psi on t3/t4 or 15psi on T3 (Blkteg97)
the more psi you have the more prone to detenation you are. i am correct in stating this?
thanks for the guy who posted the link. I don't know why my search didn't find your thread
thanks for the guy who posted the link. I don't know why my search didn't find your thread
10-25-2004, 01:20 PM
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Re: Which is Safter, 8psi on t3/t4 or 15psi on T3 (RyanCivic2000)
Ryan's right. psi = nothing. CFM = owns.
If you can make the same *peak* numbers with the samller turbo at more boost, then do so. Less lag, already piped, and you already own it. No need to buy another one just to shoot for the same goal that you could easily reach on the t3. The torque curve will change from one to another - but then again, so will the lag. Stick with the t3. From where you're standing - this is definitely the easiest and cheapest (read: free) way to make your desired power. don't let the stunnas get to you!!
If you can make the same *peak* numbers with the samller turbo at more boost, then do so. Less lag, already piped, and you already own it. No need to buy another one just to shoot for the same goal that you could easily reach on the t3. The torque curve will change from one to another - but then again, so will the lag. Stick with the t3. From where you're standing - this is definitely the easiest and cheapest (read: free) way to make your desired power. don't let the stunnas get to you!!
10-25-2004, 01:21 PM
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Re: Which is Safter, 8psi on t3/t4 or 15psi on T3 (Del_Slowest)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Del_Slowest »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the more psi you have the more prone to detenation you are. i am correct in stating this?</TD></TR></TABLE>
not quite so black and white. higher cylinder temps you have the more prone you are to detonation. There's numerous ways to get to that point.
not quite so black and white. higher cylinder temps you have the more prone you are to detonation. There's numerous ways to get to that point.
10-25-2004, 01:32 PM
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The whole "the more boost, the more out to detonate" is kind of true but missing the reasoning behind it. Most likely that turbo is limited to about 17-18psi on your engine and staying in a moderate efficiency range. What this means is after it gets out of the compressor efficiency range, your IATs will rise and thus leading to your your comment about "more prone to detonation"
Now on a T3, 15psi will probably land you in the 70% efficiency range and not cause a lick of problems. Most likely you will also be pushing a similar amount of air as a T3/t04e, just at a lower psi amount. So really does it matter? I dont think so. It just means once you want much more than 250whp your turbo will leave the efficiency range(probably as you are in the 275-290whp range) while your bigger turbo will allow you to be efficient to something like 350-400whp(this is a bit of an over generalization but you guys should get the general idea)
Now on a T3, 15psi will probably land you in the 70% efficiency range and not cause a lick of problems. Most likely you will also be pushing a similar amount of air as a T3/t04e, just at a lower psi amount. So really does it matter? I dont think so. It just means once you want much more than 250whp your turbo will leave the efficiency range(probably as you are in the 275-290whp range) while your bigger turbo will allow you to be efficient to something like 350-400whp(this is a bit of an over generalization but you guys should get the general idea)
10-25-2004, 01:37 PM
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Re: (tubegown)
if i run 13.2 (1.9 ratio)psi i'll be in the compressor map again. So you guys are saying i should raise it to 13ish psi and it won't crack a ringland with the pressure.
10-25-2004, 01:46 PM
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Re: Which is Safter, 8psi on t3/t4 or 15psi on T3 (RyanCivic2000)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RyanCivic2000 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">17psi does not add any extra stress to the internals. Only horsepower and torque will add extra stress. The engine does not give one **** whether you have 250whp at 9 psi or 17 psi.</TD></TR></TABLE>
There's a reason people aren't running around with 15:1 compression and a turbo. The more pressure you are forcing into a motor, the higher it's compression will be under boost.
There's a reason people aren't running around with 15:1 compression and a turbo. The more pressure you are forcing into a motor, the higher it's compression will be under boost.
10-25-2004, 01:55 PM
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Re: (Del_Slowest)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Del_Slowest »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
if i run 13.2 (1.9 ratio)psi i'll be in the compressor map again. So you guys are saying i should raise it to 13ish psi and it won't crack a ringland with the pressure.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Nothing's going to determine that except cylinder pressure (which isn't directly related to manifold psi). If you detonate, you could crack a ringland at 6psi. If you don't detonate, you could NOT crack one at 28 psi.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PureTeg420 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
There's a reason people aren't running around with 15:1 compression and a turbo. The more pressure you are forcing into a motor, the higher it's compression will be under boost. </TD></TR></TABLE>
actually, it's because of the CFM. Not the psi. psi dosen't tell you anything about the mass of air you are taking in. Molecules of air is what fills the space. Not a 2-dimensional unit of measurement. You can have 2psi and 400cfm or 20psi and 40cfm.
BTW, people run "15:1 compression and a turbo" all the time. Ever hear of a diesel?
if i run 13.2 (1.9 ratio)psi i'll be in the compressor map again. So you guys are saying i should raise it to 13ish psi and it won't crack a ringland with the pressure.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Nothing's going to determine that except cylinder pressure (which isn't directly related to manifold psi). If you detonate, you could crack a ringland at 6psi. If you don't detonate, you could NOT crack one at 28 psi.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PureTeg420 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
There's a reason people aren't running around with 15:1 compression and a turbo. The more pressure you are forcing into a motor, the higher it's compression will be under boost. </TD></TR></TABLE>
actually, it's because of the CFM. Not the psi. psi dosen't tell you anything about the mass of air you are taking in. Molecules of air is what fills the space. Not a 2-dimensional unit of measurement. You can have 2psi and 400cfm or 20psi and 40cfm.
BTW, people run "15:1 compression and a turbo" all the time. Ever hear of a diesel?
10-25-2004, 02:05 PM
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Re: (Nobody Special)
No, what's a diesel? Oh you mean the motors that are of a completely different design and have no relevence to this thread? yeah I think I know something about them.
Lets say you've got a restrictive manifold, and 20psi of air going through it to the motor. Now the 20psi will make it to the motor, but because of the restriction in the manifold, not all the CFM's from the turbo will. I'm not a fluid dynamics major here, but pressure is still going to affect compression, will it not?
Lets say you've got a restrictive manifold, and 20psi of air going through it to the motor. Now the 20psi will make it to the motor, but because of the restriction in the manifold, not all the CFM's from the turbo will. I'm not a fluid dynamics major here, but pressure is still going to affect compression, will it not?
10-25-2004, 02:23 PM
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Re: (PureTeg420)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PureTeg420 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No, what's a diesel? Oh you mean the motors that are of a completely different design and have no relevence to this thread? yeah I think I know something about them. </TD></TR></TABLE>
How's it a completely different design? Really - what's different aside from it's fuel and its means to combust it. I thought it would be relevant since it fits those exact paramaters that you gave and in most cases - exceeeds them. The point being that if detonation can be quelled, then you most certainly can do it. If you'd prefer to argue form that standpoint though - I'll make the example with a methanol car and you'll do the typical H-T thing and make up some other semantics excuse. The typical "I meant..but I didn't ever say" deal.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Lets say you've got a restrictive manifold, and 20psi of air going through it to the motor. Now the 20psi will make it to the motor, but because of the restriction in the manifold, not all the CFM's from the turbo will. I'm not a fluid dynamics major here, but pressure is still going to affect compression, will it not?</TD></TR></TABLE>
before we get into this one, since you're one of thousands of semantics addicts here on H-T, I'll ask you to specifiy what type of "compression" you're talking about.
How's it a completely different design? Really - what's different aside from it's fuel and its means to combust it. I thought it would be relevant since it fits those exact paramaters that you gave and in most cases - exceeeds them. The point being that if detonation can be quelled, then you most certainly can do it. If you'd prefer to argue form that standpoint though - I'll make the example with a methanol car and you'll do the typical H-T thing and make up some other semantics excuse. The typical "I meant..but I didn't ever say" deal.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Lets say you've got a restrictive manifold, and 20psi of air going through it to the motor. Now the 20psi will make it to the motor, but because of the restriction in the manifold, not all the CFM's from the turbo will. I'm not a fluid dynamics major here, but pressure is still going to affect compression, will it not?</TD></TR></TABLE>
before we get into this one, since you're one of thousands of semantics addicts here on H-T, I'll ask you to specifiy what type of "compression" you're talking about.
10-25-2004, 02:34 PM
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Re: (Nobody Special)
Well when you rely on compression to fire the diesel, you're not going to get by with 9:1 compression, so high compression is a must. Not quite the case on a motor running gasoline, which is what the thread creator was asking about. I didn't realize that I had to cover every single possibility, including ones that don't use gasoline, to prove my point.
On your other question, I'm not sure if I know where you're going with that one. I'm simply referring to the compression between the piston and the cylinder head.
On your other question, I'm not sure if I know where you're going with that one. I'm simply referring to the compression between the piston and the cylinder head.
10-25-2004, 03:09 PM
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Re: (PureTeg420)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PureTeg420 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well when you rely on compression to fire the diesel, you're not going to get by with 9:1 compression, so high compression is a must. Not quite the case on a motor running gasoline, which is what the thread creator was asking about. I didn't realize that I had to cover every single possibility, including ones that don't use gasoline, to prove my point.</TD></TR></TABLE>
As stated: <TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The point being that if detonation can be quelled, then you most certainly can do it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
The point you're missing is that weather it's diesel or methanol, or even race gas - they're still doing the same exact thing (to their own degree) - decreasing the ignition point of the charge. Mid-teen compression + boost is still possible on gasoline. If I bring up race gas, you'll then limit it to unleaded and so on. Like I said - typical H-T semantic defense.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
On your other question, I'm not sure if I know where you're going with that one. I'm simply referring to the compression between the piston and the cylinder head. </TD></TR></TABLE>
There's more than one "compression" in refference to an engine. That's what I'm asking you to pin down so that this dosen't turn into yet another round of dodge ball. BTW, Diesels use heat to combust their charges - they don't really care how they get there. The existance of glow plugs is proof of this.
As stated: <TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The point being that if detonation can be quelled, then you most certainly can do it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
The point you're missing is that weather it's diesel or methanol, or even race gas - they're still doing the same exact thing (to their own degree) - decreasing the ignition point of the charge. Mid-teen compression + boost is still possible on gasoline. If I bring up race gas, you'll then limit it to unleaded and so on. Like I said - typical H-T semantic defense.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
On your other question, I'm not sure if I know where you're going with that one. I'm simply referring to the compression between the piston and the cylinder head. </TD></TR></TABLE>
There's more than one "compression" in refference to an engine. That's what I'm asking you to pin down so that this dosen't turn into yet another round of dodge ball. BTW, Diesels use heat to combust their charges - they don't really care how they get there. The existance of glow plugs is proof of this.
10-25-2004, 03:14 PM
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Re: Which is Safter, 8psi on t3/t4 or 15psi on T3 (Del_Slowest)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Del_Slowest »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the more psi you have the more prone to detenation you are. i am correct in stating this?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Nope.
If you must compare Intake Manifold pressure to something, compare it to Exhaust Manifold pressure... wtf atmospheric pressure has to do with it I really don't understand.
Pay attention to temps, and simple things that cause reversion and pumping losses. Those are the things that leave you prone to detonation.
Nope.
If you must compare Intake Manifold pressure to something, compare it to Exhaust Manifold pressure... wtf atmospheric pressure has to do with it I really don't understand.
Pay attention to temps, and simple things that cause reversion and pumping losses. Those are the things that leave you prone to detonation.
10-25-2004, 03:23 PM
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Re: Which is Safter, 8psi on t3/t4 or 15psi on T3 (J. Davis)
A note on temps:
In the last month I've tuned two setups that are more or less "the same" except my good buddy Trav-***'s car has a HUGE FMIC, whereas Caleb's has a long and skinny JRIC unit, half the height and not quite as thick. Comparing datalogs of IAT and fuel maps in boost are endlessly amusing. Trav-***'s heavyslut Pigtegra keeps very, very chilly at all times, the boost maps are noticeably richer as a reflection of the denser intake charge (more air mass).
In the last month I've tuned two setups that are more or less "the same" except my good buddy Trav-***'s car has a HUGE FMIC, whereas Caleb's has a long and skinny JRIC unit, half the height and not quite as thick. Comparing datalogs of IAT and fuel maps in boost are endlessly amusing. Trav-***'s heavyslut Pigtegra keeps very, very chilly at all times, the boost maps are noticeably richer as a reflection of the denser intake charge (more air mass).
10-25-2004, 03:51 PM
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Re: Which is Safter, 8psi on t3/t4 or 15psi on T3 (J. Davis)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Nope.
If you must compare Intake Manifold pressure to something, compare it to Exhaust Manifold pressure... wtf atmospheric pressure has to do with it I really don't understand.</TD></TR></TABLE>
What would be considered a safe or beneficial ratio? This would be more for a comparison of overall efficiency and in some aspects, dissimilar (with the turbine's resistance to flow being independant from the back of the valves for different reasons), no? I'm not asking to be a *****. I'm genuinely asking to be enlightened. Thanks.
Nope.
If you must compare Intake Manifold pressure to something, compare it to Exhaust Manifold pressure... wtf atmospheric pressure has to do with it I really don't understand.</TD></TR></TABLE>
What would be considered a safe or beneficial ratio? This would be more for a comparison of overall efficiency and in some aspects, dissimilar (with the turbine's resistance to flow being independant from the back of the valves for different reasons), no? I'm not asking to be a *****. I'm genuinely asking to be enlightened. Thanks.
