sad day on the dyno
07-01-2006, 08:04 PM
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sad day on the dyno
Here goes, i have a 1997 honda civic d16y5 sohc vtec, hondata s300 tuned by groundzero cp pistons 020. over bore, h-beam eagle rods, walbro fuel pump, 450cc injectors, port & polished head, t3 custom turbo kit, intercooled full 2.5 exhaust no cat, skunk2 mega power 3inch muffler,clutchmasters stage 4 clutch, boosted at 10psi, now here is the problem i recenlty had hondata s300 installed, and on my BEST last 2 runs on a (mustang dyno) i came up with
max power137.1 @5200rpm max torque 144.3 @ 4300rpm
next run max power 137.1@ 5200rpm max torque 143.7 @ 4900rpm
NOT TO HAPPY WITH THAT, now when im driving my car i read on my boost gauge full boost @ 10psi ive been checking for boost leaks, couplers, fittings charge pipes, dont know what else to do thanks for any help you can give me
max power137.1 @5200rpm max torque 144.3 @ 4300rpm
next run max power 137.1@ 5200rpm max torque 143.7 @ 4900rpm
NOT TO HAPPY WITH THAT, now when im driving my car i read on my boost gauge full boost @ 10psi ive been checking for boost leaks, couplers, fittings charge pipes, dont know what else to do thanks for any help you can give me
07-01-2006, 08:08 PM
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Re: sad day on the dyno (d16turbocivic)
Usually when i see more tq than hp it's caused my a restriction in the exhaust, but if you have a full 2.5" i don't see what i could be.
Compression check?
What was the final timing set at?
You're tuner should have suggested a lot....?
Something is wrong.
Compression check?
What was the final timing set at?
You're tuner should have suggested a lot....?
Something is wrong.
07-01-2006, 08:23 PM
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its a newly built motor only has 100miles on the bottom end, they did a compression check was good, and a leak down test, leak down was between 2% - 3% in each cylinder, tunner just said he thinks its my turbo, never checked the turbo though.. my turbo seems like it spools fine i think timing is between 15deg & 18deg.. not 100% sure
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07-01-2006, 09:21 PM
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Re: sad day on the dyno (d16turbocivic)
what is your vtec set at???
the hx motor is very different from a regular sohc vtec as far as cam profile and whatnot. im almost gonna say to set the vtec to 3k and tune that portion of the map
the hx motor is very different from a regular sohc vtec as far as cam profile and whatnot. im almost gonna say to set the vtec to 3k and tune that portion of the map
07-01-2006, 09:27 PM
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Re: (d16turbocivic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by d16turbocivic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if my turbo took a **** would it still spool up? and would i still boost 10psi?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Do you have the new SS Auto boost gague?
Do you have the new SS Auto boost gague?
07-01-2006, 09:33 PM
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lol no.. just think i was smart enough to get a good boost gauge, but not turbo lol.. then again i guess theres a few hundred dollars in there somewhere. i knew i was going to have to upgrade my turbo & manifold, just thought id atleast put a 1000 miles on it first
07-02-2006, 05:46 AM
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Re: (d16turbocivic)
100 miles is NOT enough to even begain testing on a motor you need 600 minium, perferable 1000 miles. what are you guys smoking to be jacking with a engine that new when the rings have not been seated yet?
no wonder it's messed up. you coudl have very well damaged it with what you jsut did. you better hopw you didn;t and you better start drivinging it like a grandma for the next 900 miles if you want it to last at all.
didn't anyone teach you how to deal with a new motor? Sheesh. poor car.
if this is how you take care of it, you don't desrive that car.
no wonder it's messed up. you coudl have very well damaged it with what you jsut did. you better hopw you didn;t and you better start drivinging it like a grandma for the next 900 miles if you want it to last at all.
didn't anyone teach you how to deal with a new motor? Sheesh. poor car.
if this is how you take care of it, you don't desrive that car.
07-02-2006, 05:50 AM
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Re: (oscarmayer)
^^^^ Didnt anybody tell you that soft break in's are a thing of the past? Modern honing techniques do not require a 500 mi. break in, I thrashed my block since mile 15 and I have perfect leakdown and compression numbers. I am sure some will follow with my above comments as I know I am not the only one that believes this to be true. And after the first 100 miles or so there is nothing you can do to "help" them seat any better, as the cross hatch pattern in todays cylinders seat rings much faster than the past. Most simply run their motors for 20-30 minutes with the break-in oil, change out the oil and put the car right on the dyno.
07-02-2006, 06:14 AM
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Re: (oscarmayer)
Every motor I have built unless its a stock rebuild I let it idle @ 1500 for 20 minutes then it goes to the dyno; if it is a stock rebuild I see no problem driving it how the customer wants I just tell them to do alot of engine braking (alow the engine to slow the car down) I have not had any fail and some motors have about 50k on them with no problems.
You do not need to break in a motor
You do not need to break in a motor
07-02-2006, 06:26 AM
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unless there is something really wrong, your rings should seat within 20 min's.
As 4 the turbo. it will still spool, but wont carry the same CFM as it should.
do you have a flex section in you exaust? if so, some of the cheaper flex piping have been known to cave in(inside) causing a major restriction in flow. you can tell from the outside, you have to drop the exhaust and look 4 yourself to see.. Donno, may ba may not...
As 4 the turbo. it will still spool, but wont carry the same CFM as it should.
do you have a flex section in you exaust? if so, some of the cheaper flex piping have been known to cave in(inside) causing a major restriction in flow. you can tell from the outside, you have to drop the exhaust and look 4 yourself to see.. Donno, may ba may not...
07-02-2006, 07:33 AM
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Re: (Blown99civicsi)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blown99civicsi »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">unless there is something really wrong, your rings should seat within 20 min's.
As 4 the turbo. it will still spool, but wont carry the same CFM as it should.
do you have a flex section in you exaust? if so, some of the cheaper flex piping have been known to cave in(inside) causing a major restriction in flow. you can tell from the outside, you have to drop the exhaust and look 4 yourself to see.. Donno, may ba may not...</TD></TR></TABLE>
very good reply. i can vouch for alll of this being 100% reasonable, it happend to a friend of mine
As 4 the turbo. it will still spool, but wont carry the same CFM as it should.
do you have a flex section in you exaust? if so, some of the cheaper flex piping have been known to cave in(inside) causing a major restriction in flow. you can tell from the outside, you have to drop the exhaust and look 4 yourself to see.. Donno, may ba may not...</TD></TR></TABLE>
very good reply. i can vouch for alll of this being 100% reasonable, it happend to a friend of mine
07-02-2006, 07:41 AM
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Re: (oscarmayer)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by oscarmayer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">100 miles is NOT enough to even begain testing on a motor you need 600 minium, perferable 1000 miles. what are you guys smoking to be jacking with a engine that new when the rings have not been seated yet?
no wonder it's messed up. you coudl have very well damaged it with what you jsut did. you better hopw you didn;t and you better start drivinging it like a grandma for the next 900 miles if you want it to last at all.
didn't anyone teach you how to deal with a new motor? Sheesh. poor car.
if this is how you take care of it, you don't desrive that car.</TD></TR></TABLE>
your an idiot. stop talking.
Broke my engine in ON the dyno, perfect comp and leakdown here as well. And this is COMMON practice, christ, check your facts before you come on here making condescending posts mr.high n mighty.
OP: Do you have the dyno graphs? Is your cam timing good? afrs in boost? is vtec engaging? does your exhaust have a flex section or do you have a cat? Are your running a 3bar map or oem map?
no wonder it's messed up. you coudl have very well damaged it with what you jsut did. you better hopw you didn;t and you better start drivinging it like a grandma for the next 900 miles if you want it to last at all.
didn't anyone teach you how to deal with a new motor? Sheesh. poor car.
if this is how you take care of it, you don't desrive that car.</TD></TR></TABLE>
your an idiot. stop talking.
Broke my engine in ON the dyno, perfect comp and leakdown here as well. And this is COMMON practice, christ, check your facts before you come on here making condescending posts mr.high n mighty.
OP: Do you have the dyno graphs? Is your cam timing good? afrs in boost? is vtec engaging? does your exhaust have a flex section or do you have a cat? Are your running a 3bar map or oem map?
07-02-2006, 08:16 AM
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yeah definitely post a picture of your dyno graph. i'm gonna guess your turbo is the factor. groundzero is pretty good at what they do, you can always try torquefreaks or rrev motorsports if you're not happy with gz.
07-02-2006, 08:43 AM
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I've talked to some of the top engine builders int he world personally and directly. YES guys that build 500k top fuel and prostock motors.
they said the rings are what decided how long the engine needs to be broken, racing rings can be broken in minutes, where normal street style and oem specs take the longer run. Don;t let thet "fast" method tarning you thoughts, despite what you have been told. seen or heard, again this comes directly form places that do some of the msot expensive engines in the world with the msit expirenced builders.
take if for what ever info you want. but I'm following their info.
they said the rings are what decided how long the engine needs to be broken, racing rings can be broken in minutes, where normal street style and oem specs take the longer run. Don;t let thet "fast" method tarning you thoughts, despite what you have been told. seen or heard, again this comes directly form places that do some of the msot expensive engines in the world with the msit expirenced builders.
take if for what ever info you want. but I'm following their info.
07-02-2006, 09:39 AM
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Re: (oscarmayer)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by oscarmayer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've talked to some of the top engine builders int he world personally and directly. YES guys that build 500k top fuel and prostock motors.
they said the rings are what decided how long the engine needs to be broken, racing rings can be broken in minutes, where normal street style and oem specs take the longer run. Don;t let thet "fast" method tarning you thoughts, despite what you have been told. seen or heard, again this comes directly form places that do some of the msot expensive engines in the world with the msit expirenced builders.
take if for what ever info you want. but I'm following their info.</TD></TR></TABLE>i dunno ive broken in every motor ive ever built the hard way and they have all been strong runners with zero failures...i guess everyone has their own opinion on break in but i will continue to use what has worked for me in the past
they said the rings are what decided how long the engine needs to be broken, racing rings can be broken in minutes, where normal street style and oem specs take the longer run. Don;t let thet "fast" method tarning you thoughts, despite what you have been told. seen or heard, again this comes directly form places that do some of the msot expensive engines in the world with the msit expirenced builders.
take if for what ever info you want. but I'm following their info.</TD></TR></TABLE>i dunno ive broken in every motor ive ever built the hard way and they have all been strong runners with zero failures...i guess everyone has their own opinion on break in but i will continue to use what has worked for me in the past
07-02-2006, 10:09 AM
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From 0-30 miles on the engine I hit 7000+ with no boost. 9000rpm at 20psi when I hit 30 miles 
Seating the rings are generally within the first 15miles. Perfect leakdown and compression numbers.
Seating the rings the hard way on the street and/or dyno has proven to show better leakdown test then ANY other method.
Seating the rings are generally within the first 15miles. Perfect leakdown and compression numbers.
Seating the rings the hard way on the street and/or dyno has proven to show better leakdown test then ANY other method.
07-02-2006, 03:31 PM
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Re: (abnaasefmb)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blown99civicsi »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As 4 the turbo. it will still spool, but wont carry the same CFM as it should.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Just curious how can you tell if this is the issue? Like if the turbo spools fine, and has no shaft play, could it still not be producing the same CFM's and therefor be a weakpoint in the system? Dont mean to threadjack but my car is falling on its face at 5800rpms although it holds boost and there is no shaftplay could the turbo still be dead/on its way out? Is there a definitive way to test?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by oscarmayer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've talked to some of the top engine builders int he world personally and directly. YES guys that build 500k top fuel and prostock motors.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
well then they must be running some drastically different setup, most if not ALL of the top engine builders on this site [many of which could also count as some of the best honda engine builders in the country and/or world] will tell you there is not a thing wrong with breaking it in on the dyno or hard on the street, most actually prefer it. I would say ALL but im gonna say "most" just so those 1 or 2 outliers who prefer 1000k break-in (absurd) arent left out....
Just curious how can you tell if this is the issue? Like if the turbo spools fine, and has no shaft play, could it still not be producing the same CFM's and therefor be a weakpoint in the system? Dont mean to threadjack but my car is falling on its face at 5800rpms although it holds boost and there is no shaftplay could the turbo still be dead/on its way out? Is there a definitive way to test?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by oscarmayer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've talked to some of the top engine builders int he world personally and directly. YES guys that build 500k top fuel and prostock motors.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
well then they must be running some drastically different setup, most if not ALL of the top engine builders on this site [many of which could also count as some of the best honda engine builders in the country and/or world] will tell you there is not a thing wrong with breaking it in on the dyno or hard on the street, most actually prefer it. I would say ALL but im gonna say "most" just so those 1 or 2 outliers who prefer 1000k break-in (absurd) arent left out....