Is retightening ARP headstuds needed?
04-17-2006, 02:47 PM
#2
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chicago area, us
Posts: 2,636
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Is retightening ARP headstuds needed? (Pompiuses)
Well if installed correctly, no. If that was a proper install sequence a lot of people would be lifting their head.
You should be fine, but if it worries you then go back in an see if they have kept tight.
You should be fine, but if it worries you then go back in an see if they have kept tight.
04-17-2006, 04:02 PM
#4
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: RIP Duke of Turbo, CA
Posts: 1,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (zerovandez)
According to arp you are supposed to retorque the studs after you run the vehicle.
http://www.arp-bolts.com/Catalog/Catalog.html page 36, read the article in the little blue box on the left side of the page. Straight from ARP.
http://www.arp-bolts.com/Catalog/Catalog.html page 36, read the article in the little blue box on the left side of the page. Straight from ARP.
Trending Topics
04-17-2006, 09:08 PM
#8
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 38,620
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Is retightening ARP headstuds needed? (m R g S r)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by m R g S r »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i never re tqed mine and they have been fine........</TD></TR></TABLE>
04-17-2006, 09:17 PM
#9
Re: Is retightening ARP headstuds needed? (m R g S r)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by m R g S r »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i never re tqed mine and they have been fine........</TD></TR></TABLE>
I had ARP's installed back in September '05, the car has about 10,000miles on it now. I just went back and checked them to ease my mind. All of them were still torqued just fine.
I had ARP's installed back in September '05, the car has about 10,000miles on it now. I just went back and checked them to ease my mind. All of them were still torqued just fine.
04-17-2006, 11:20 PM
#10
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 964
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (KeyserSoze)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by KeyserSoze »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">According to arp you are supposed to retorque the studs after you run the vehicle.
http://www.arp-bolts.com/Catalog/Catalog.html page 36, read the article in the little blue box on the left side of the page. Straight from ARP. </TD></TR></TABLE>
It says:
"Because the head gasket will compress upon initial torquing, make sure studs and bolts are re-torqued after the engine has been run."
I've already put 1200km on the motor with seemingly no problems, so I really don't know how necessary re-torquing is. Besides it looks like most people here don't re-torque them either.
I think I'll just leave them as they are. If it works don't mess with it
.
http://www.arp-bolts.com/Catalog/Catalog.html page 36, read the article in the little blue box on the left side of the page. Straight from ARP.
</TD></TR></TABLE>It says:
"Because the head gasket will compress upon initial torquing, make sure studs and bolts are re-torqued after the engine has been run."
I've already put 1200km on the motor with seemingly no problems, so I really don't know how necessary re-torquing is. Besides it looks like most people here don't re-torque them either.
I think I'll just leave them as they are. If it works don't mess with it
.
04-18-2006, 02:18 AM
#11
Re: (Pompiuses)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Pompiuses »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It says:
"Because the head gasket will compress upon initial torquing, make sure studs and bolts are re-torqued after the engine has been run.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't understand this
It says:
"Because the head gasket will compress upon initial torquing, make sure studs and bolts are re-torqued after the engine has been run.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't understand this
04-18-2006, 07:14 AM
#12
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Louisville, KY, US
Posts: 2,126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Is retightening ARP headstuds needed? (Pompiuses)
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread/1593762
as earl said in his last post, old school headgaskets used to compress, honda gaskets do not. I've re-torqued mine the first engine build, build #2 with the same studs, i didn't, now i'm on engine #3 with these studs and i figure everything has scretched as much as it could so i'm not retorquing.
as earl said in his last post, old school headgaskets used to compress, honda gaskets do not. I've re-torqued mine the first engine build, build #2 with the same studs, i didn't, now i'm on engine #3 with these studs and i figure everything has scretched as much as it could so i'm not retorquing.
04-18-2006, 02:27 PM
#13
Re: Is retightening ARP headstuds needed? (seen4ever)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by seen4ever »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">https://honda-tech.com/zerothread/1593762
I've re-torqued mine the first engine build, build #2 with the same studs, i didn't, now i'm on engine #3 with these studs and i figure everything has scretched as much as it could so i'm not retorquing.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Nothing stretches.
I've re-torqued mine the first engine build, build #2 with the same studs, i didn't, now i'm on engine #3 with these studs and i figure everything has scretched as much as it could so i'm not retorquing.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Nothing stretches.
04-18-2006, 05:35 PM
#14
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Louisville, KY, US
Posts: 2,126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Is retightening ARP headstuds needed? (racerxadam)
kind of what i thought, i know when installing ARP rod bolts you have to torque, retorque like 5 times to ensure you have an accurate reading. same reason why the stock headbolts are torque to yield only once, then you have to tose them.
i could be wrong, as even when i did re-torque my headstuds, they were dead on
i could be wrong, as even when i did re-torque my headstuds, they were dead on
04-18-2006, 06:43 PM
#15
Re: Is retightening ARP headstuds needed? (seen4ever)
I'm so tired of explaining this. Here's the cliff's notes:
1. When an ARP bolt is made and it leaves the factory, it has a certain length - a length that will NEVER change. It DOES NOT stretch out after a few heat cycles and DOES NOT require re-torqueing.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. ARP bolts can be torqued to yeild as many times as you want. They will NEVER permanently stretch past their manufactured length.
As a matter of fact, the only way to determine whether or not a used ARP bolt is good is to do the following:
-Take an exact measure of the length of the bolt as it arrived from the factory. (Down to a thousandth of an inch).
-After the bolt has been used (i.e. you're re-using a head bolt, rod bolt, etc.), meaure it's length again, down to .001".
-Compare the two lengths - if the used bolt is even a few thousands longer, it's no good.
This is why you should never buy used ARP bolts or studs - you have no idea what the original manufactured lengths were. Without that vital information, you don't know if the bolts were taken past their yield (over-torqued). As soon as a bolt is over-stretched, it's garbage even though it looks exactly the same.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. The purpose of tightening/loosening the bolt a few times is to BETTER SEAT the bolt. It has nothing to do with stretching the bolt.
1. When an ARP bolt is made and it leaves the factory, it has a certain length - a length that will NEVER change. It DOES NOT stretch out after a few heat cycles and DOES NOT require re-torqueing.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. ARP bolts can be torqued to yeild as many times as you want. They will NEVER permanently stretch past their manufactured length.
As a matter of fact, the only way to determine whether or not a used ARP bolt is good is to do the following:
-Take an exact measure of the length of the bolt as it arrived from the factory. (Down to a thousandth of an inch).
-After the bolt has been used (i.e. you're re-using a head bolt, rod bolt, etc.), meaure it's length again, down to .001".
-Compare the two lengths - if the used bolt is even a few thousands longer, it's no good.
This is why you should never buy used ARP bolts or studs - you have no idea what the original manufactured lengths were. Without that vital information, you don't know if the bolts were taken past their yield (over-torqued). As soon as a bolt is over-stretched, it's garbage even though it looks exactly the same.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. The purpose of tightening/loosening the bolt a few times is to BETTER SEAT the bolt. It has nothing to do with stretching the bolt.
04-18-2006, 07:33 PM
#17
Re: Is retightening ARP headstuds needed? (EnzoSpeed)
I know this is confusing, so here's an example.
For my last build, I bought a used set of Crower rods from a forum member. The rods came with the original bolts, but I threw the bolts away since I had no way of determining if they were still good. I promply ordered a new set of bolts from Crower. When the new bolts came in the mail, I measured them first thing. Here is how each bolt measured:
Rod 1:
A- 1.831
B- 1.8235
Rod 2:
A- 1.833
B- 1.8355
Rod 3:
A- 1.8355
B- 1.830
Rod 4:
A- 1.8345
B- 1.8325
It's important to keep a recording of these lengths, as well as a diagram of where each bolt is located.
Next, I installed the bolts. I used a stretch gauge and tightened all the bolts until they were 0.0055 inches longer than the manufactured length.
Now here's what most people don't understand. The bolts will never be longer than 0.0055 over factory length. They won't stretch after heat cyles, or after a certain mileage, or anything else. They will never ever ever stretch any longer than +0.0055.
Conversely, when the bolts are removed, they will always, always be the same as the recorded manufactured lenghts. I can re-use the bolts as many times as I want and two things will always be true - when the bolts are loose, they will always be identical to the recorded lenghts - when the bolts are tightened, they will always be +0.0055.
If I ever remove a rod bolt and it measures to be longer than the length I recorded above, I'm going to throw it away because THE BOLTS AREN'T SUPPOSED TO PERMANENTLY STRETCH!!!
Furthermore, the purpose of tightening/loosening a bolt when you first install it is to seat the bolt better. Each time you tighten/loosen the bolt, the head of the bolt, as well as the threads, create a more perfect contact with the hole it is threading into. The repeated tightening/loosening breaks down the microscpic imperfections and bits of debris that create extra friction between the bolt and the threads - these imperfections are what skew torque wrench readings. This process is completely unrelated to bolt stretch - it is simply a way to better re-create the ideal laboratory conditions that ARP was using when they determined the torque spec for that certain bolt. That's why a stretch gauge is a million times better - it is not a friction-based measurement.
For my last build, I bought a used set of Crower rods from a forum member. The rods came with the original bolts, but I threw the bolts away since I had no way of determining if they were still good. I promply ordered a new set of bolts from Crower. When the new bolts came in the mail, I measured them first thing. Here is how each bolt measured:
Rod 1:
A- 1.831
B- 1.8235
Rod 2:
A- 1.833
B- 1.8355
Rod 3:
A- 1.8355
B- 1.830
Rod 4:
A- 1.8345
B- 1.8325
It's important to keep a recording of these lengths, as well as a diagram of where each bolt is located.
Next, I installed the bolts. I used a stretch gauge and tightened all the bolts until they were 0.0055 inches longer than the manufactured length.
Now here's what most people don't understand. The bolts will never be longer than 0.0055 over factory length. They won't stretch after heat cyles, or after a certain mileage, or anything else. They will never ever ever stretch any longer than +0.0055.
Conversely, when the bolts are removed, they will always, always be the same as the recorded manufactured lenghts. I can re-use the bolts as many times as I want and two things will always be true - when the bolts are loose, they will always be identical to the recorded lenghts - when the bolts are tightened, they will always be +0.0055.
If I ever remove a rod bolt and it measures to be longer than the length I recorded above, I'm going to throw it away because THE BOLTS AREN'T SUPPOSED TO PERMANENTLY STRETCH!!!
Furthermore, the purpose of tightening/loosening a bolt when you first install it is to seat the bolt better. Each time you tighten/loosen the bolt, the head of the bolt, as well as the threads, create a more perfect contact with the hole it is threading into. The repeated tightening/loosening breaks down the microscpic imperfections and bits of debris that create extra friction between the bolt and the threads - these imperfections are what skew torque wrench readings. This process is completely unrelated to bolt stretch - it is simply a way to better re-create the ideal laboratory conditions that ARP was using when they determined the torque spec for that certain bolt. That's why a stretch gauge is a million times better - it is not a friction-based measurement.
04-18-2006, 10:50 PM
#19
Honda-Tech Member
Re: (zerovandez)
With headstuds you have a gasket and possibly copper orings that can "settle" and cause the load on the studs to change. I always retorque mine after 10 heat cycles or so just to be safe. It's cheap insurance...
06-12-2007, 05:08 AM
#20
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 790
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (tony1)
You guys make it sound like checking/retorque-ing head studs is simple and no big deal. Am I missing something ?
In a B18C5, the headstuds are underneath the camshafts, so that would involve removing the valve cover, cams, and all the other junk to remove the timing belt (p/s belt, a/c belt, alternator belt, cam covers, etc..)
Seems like an awful lot of work just to get to the headstuds.
So I'm holding back from checking mine.
In a B18C5, the headstuds are underneath the camshafts, so that would involve removing the valve cover, cams, and all the other junk to remove the timing belt (p/s belt, a/c belt, alternator belt, cam covers, etc..)
Seems like an awful lot of work just to get to the headstuds.
So I'm holding back from checking mine.
06-12-2007, 05:16 AM
#21
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Illanoise, USA
Posts: 3,448
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (arren123)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by arren123 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You guys make it sound like checking/retorque-ing head studs is simple and no big deal. Am I missing something ?
In a B18C5, the headstuds are underneath the camshafts, so that would involve removing the valve cover, cams, and all the other junk to remove the timing belt (p/s belt, a/c belt, alternator belt, cam covers, etc..)
Seems like an awful lot of work just to get to the headstuds.
So I'm holding back from checking mine.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
SOHC's are like a 15 minute job. Gotta love em' for that.
In a B18C5, the headstuds are underneath the camshafts, so that would involve removing the valve cover, cams, and all the other junk to remove the timing belt (p/s belt, a/c belt, alternator belt, cam covers, etc..)
Seems like an awful lot of work just to get to the headstuds.
So I'm holding back from checking mine.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
SOHC's are like a 15 minute job. Gotta love em' for that.
06-12-2007, 02:08 PM
#24
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 790
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (93supercoupe)
Ok.. Maybe I used the wrong words.
True, its not difficult. I wish there was a less time consuming way..
I'm trying to track down my oil leaks and had the fiasco of fixing my oil pan gasket leak. The first two times I replaced it it leaked. So I finally got a new oil pan and a third new gasket and I think it did the job.. I think my old oil pan was a little warped.
Now that I took care of that, there's another leak. I found oil on the exhaust header gasket (still wet) around the #1 and #2 holes. #3 and 4 were clean.
A can see some oil come from around the head and block area. near the powersteering and a/c compressor bracket, but I can't tell if its actually coming from between the head and block because the brackets are in the way.
I'm not 100% sure its coming from the valve cover gasket, but it looks dry up there to me.
I wanted to re-torque my Arp head studs to make sure they are still tight, but the time involved is a little much.
I'm not sure how oil gets around the header gasket. I don't think its coming through the valve seals of the exhaust valves, I'd think the oil would burn up before it had a chance to collect.
They only thing I can think of is that the oil is being wicked up, but that's a stretch in itself.
True, its not difficult. I wish there was a less time consuming way..
I'm trying to track down my oil leaks and had the fiasco of fixing my oil pan gasket leak. The first two times I replaced it it leaked. So I finally got a new oil pan and a third new gasket and I think it did the job.. I think my old oil pan was a little warped.
Now that I took care of that, there's another leak. I found oil on the exhaust header gasket (still wet) around the #1 and #2 holes. #3 and 4 were clean.
A can see some oil come from around the head and block area. near the powersteering and a/c compressor bracket, but I can't tell if its actually coming from between the head and block because the brackets are in the way.
I'm not 100% sure its coming from the valve cover gasket, but it looks dry up there to me.
I wanted to re-torque my Arp head studs to make sure they are still tight, but the time involved is a little much.
I'm not sure how oil gets around the header gasket. I don't think its coming through the valve seals of the exhaust valves, I'd think the oil would burn up before it had a chance to collect.
They only thing I can think of is that the oil is being wicked up, but that's a stretch in itself.
06-12-2007, 02:20 PM
#25
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: RIP Duke of Turbo, CA
Posts: 1,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (arren123)
Wow, you really brought this one back......
DOHC headstuds are fairly easy to re-torque. Valve cover, dizzy, cam caps, tensioner. I have no idea why you would need to remove all that other extraneous crap to get to the headstuds, but if you really want to go ahead.
On a side note, ~2k on my boosted gsr, no re-torque and no problems yet.....
DOHC headstuds are fairly easy to re-torque. Valve cover, dizzy, cam caps, tensioner. I have no idea why you would need to remove all that other extraneous crap to get to the headstuds, but if you really want to go ahead.
On a side note, ~2k on my boosted gsr, no re-torque and no problems yet.....