Reliable Turbo B18
#1
Reliable Turbo B18
Hello HT. I have a few questions that will hopefully help guide me down a "painless" road. First off I have a 98 Civic HX EJ7.
I am planning on a motor swap to a B18. Now before I get bombarded by people telling me to go research, I have for many months now but still want help coming to conclusions.
Initially, my budget is around 1500-2000 reasonably but I am probably looking at a more long term build. This for now will include motor, LSD tranny, ecu, harness, and internals. Now, what I have come to you guys for, is your opinion on these b18's.
I am pretty much convinced that I will go LS due to budget but I don't want to dive into a long term project that will be a dead end. My main goals for this project are to reach around 350-400hp safely, reliably, and correctly built (after turbo of course). I do want to turbo eventually but will strengthen the motor before doing so. This car will be my dd.
Now heres my question. I know that a gsr motor would cost more in the long run, but will I be able to accomplish the same power with a b18b1 in an affordable manner compared to gsr? The most expensive part of this project will probably be internal work (Sleeves, Pistons & Rods, Port & Polish, Cams, Valves, Springs) bottom to top end support.
In the long run, after investing these support items, will it even matter if I have vtec or non-vtec? I know that because of better air flow, the c1 head allows low boost while maintaining a good power band compared to the mid-high boost LS, is this an advantage? Maybe keeping low boost means more reliability? Is the c1 or b1 overall a better decision considering (money, time, effort, reliability, headaches)? Can I just say the typical Honda owner's quote "buy it, build it, blow it, f*** it" is not the standard I want to build by.
Like I had stated this project will be my dd. Am I asking for too much? Accomplishing great numbers is really my goal. Smashing on local cars as well. Is building a 350-450hp civic too much to handle on the streets? If so, what numbers are more realistic when it comes to dumping an STI or EVO here and there (not stating that this is my intention)? I would appreciate input from those who have had experience with high power and low power civics on the road. Stat. #'s (dyno, quarter-mile) would be appreciated as well.
To be perfectly honest, I have not even started purchasing but I sure would appreciate some guidance from those who know, and so would many who have the same questions! Thanks to everyone who has input! -Cheers
I am planning on a motor swap to a B18. Now before I get bombarded by people telling me to go research, I have for many months now but still want help coming to conclusions.
Initially, my budget is around 1500-2000 reasonably but I am probably looking at a more long term build. This for now will include motor, LSD tranny, ecu, harness, and internals. Now, what I have come to you guys for, is your opinion on these b18's.
I am pretty much convinced that I will go LS due to budget but I don't want to dive into a long term project that will be a dead end. My main goals for this project are to reach around 350-400hp safely, reliably, and correctly built (after turbo of course). I do want to turbo eventually but will strengthen the motor before doing so. This car will be my dd.
Now heres my question. I know that a gsr motor would cost more in the long run, but will I be able to accomplish the same power with a b18b1 in an affordable manner compared to gsr? The most expensive part of this project will probably be internal work (Sleeves, Pistons & Rods, Port & Polish, Cams, Valves, Springs) bottom to top end support.
In the long run, after investing these support items, will it even matter if I have vtec or non-vtec? I know that because of better air flow, the c1 head allows low boost while maintaining a good power band compared to the mid-high boost LS, is this an advantage? Maybe keeping low boost means more reliability? Is the c1 or b1 overall a better decision considering (money, time, effort, reliability, headaches)? Can I just say the typical Honda owner's quote "buy it, build it, blow it, f*** it" is not the standard I want to build by.
Like I had stated this project will be my dd. Am I asking for too much? Accomplishing great numbers is really my goal. Smashing on local cars as well. Is building a 350-450hp civic too much to handle on the streets? If so, what numbers are more realistic when it comes to dumping an STI or EVO here and there (not stating that this is my intention)? I would appreciate input from those who have had experience with high power and low power civics on the road. Stat. #'s (dyno, quarter-mile) would be appreciated as well.
To be perfectly honest, I have not even started purchasing but I sure would appreciate some guidance from those who know, and so would many who have the same questions! Thanks to everyone who has input! -Cheers
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Re: Reliable Turbo B18
You aren't doing all that on 2000... a decent LSD is almost 1000, and pistons and rods will be another 1000 or more... that doesn't include bearings, gaskets, head studs, etc
You need almost 5000 to do everything you want, a decent port job will cost around 1500 or so depending who does it, then there's all the turbo parts (turbo, manifold, downpipe, intercooler piping, blow off valve, intercooler, oil lines) then there's fuel pump, injectors, engine management. Plus the cost of assembly and tuning, etc.
Cams are 500ish, plus another 2-300 for springs and retainers
And if you aren't doing all the work n your own, expect a huge labor bill (which means more than 5000)
You need almost 5000 to do everything you want, a decent port job will cost around 1500 or so depending who does it, then there's all the turbo parts (turbo, manifold, downpipe, intercooler piping, blow off valve, intercooler, oil lines) then there's fuel pump, injectors, engine management. Plus the cost of assembly and tuning, etc.
Cams are 500ish, plus another 2-300 for springs and retainers
And if you aren't doing all the work n your own, expect a huge labor bill (which means more than 5000)
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Re: Reliable Turbo B18
^^
What they said.
This project is way more involved than you think.
It bothers me alot when people want this level of of a build from a daily-driver. 350-450hp from a daily driver is not suggested. Anything over 300 and reliability declines drastically. Especially for a daily driver application, you are looking at constant upkeep, maintenance and checks. Setups close to 400 require alot of money, time and planning to build, assemble and keep running reliably.
From a personal standpoint, I spent over 5 times your budget this past summer for the full engine build, transmission build, turbo and components, fuel system, tuning software, gauges, custom fab work (exhaust), then all the extras like stated above, oil, coolant, fuel lines, couplers, wiring, t-bolt clamps, v-band clamps etc etc. Then full dyno tuning.
I think you are underestimating your budget and overestimating your goals while being reliable.
What they said.
This project is way more involved than you think.
It bothers me alot when people want this level of of a build from a daily-driver. 350-450hp from a daily driver is not suggested. Anything over 300 and reliability declines drastically. Especially for a daily driver application, you are looking at constant upkeep, maintenance and checks. Setups close to 400 require alot of money, time and planning to build, assemble and keep running reliably.
From a personal standpoint, I spent over 5 times your budget this past summer for the full engine build, transmission build, turbo and components, fuel system, tuning software, gauges, custom fab work (exhaust), then all the extras like stated above, oil, coolant, fuel lines, couplers, wiring, t-bolt clamps, v-band clamps etc etc. Then full dyno tuning.
I think you are underestimating your budget and overestimating your goals while being reliable.
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Re: Reliable Turbo B18
Keep it simple .You have a very low budget **** adds up really quick, A healthy stock b18b or b18c will make 350hp on a reasonable inexpensive turbo kit. A good tuner & and keeping the redline stock it will last for awhile & enjoy it No need for built block, built head, cams, LSD..
Last edited by OBRJosh; 02-01-2013 at 07:52 PM.
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#10
Re: Reliable Turbo B18
I would say just do the GSR.
What you want sounds similar to what I'm doing with this G23. I'm planning on doing it over the course of a year or two. Bullet proof, no corners cut. So I'm doing it long term and building sorta like a crate engine, if you will. What I mean by that is, it's in my garage on an engine stand, and I add parts and do some work as I get money to do it. I also plan on spending around 10,000+ all done and in my Accord. The Accord is daily driven right now, and runs perfectly.
That being said, I would suggest you do the same in order to accomplish what you want to accomplish. Probably not that high of a budget, but at least 6 grand. Just spread out the build, take your time, leave nothing un-researched, cut no corners, and take your time. It will be well worth it in the long run.
What you want sounds similar to what I'm doing with this G23. I'm planning on doing it over the course of a year or two. Bullet proof, no corners cut. So I'm doing it long term and building sorta like a crate engine, if you will. What I mean by that is, it's in my garage on an engine stand, and I add parts and do some work as I get money to do it. I also plan on spending around 10,000+ all done and in my Accord. The Accord is daily driven right now, and runs perfectly.
That being said, I would suggest you do the same in order to accomplish what you want to accomplish. Probably not that high of a budget, but at least 6 grand. Just spread out the build, take your time, leave nothing un-researched, cut no corners, and take your time. It will be well worth it in the long run.
#11
Re: Reliable Turbo B18
To start off with the just the swap:
A b18c will yeild better results boosted or not, period.
Your $2000 budget is not even enough to do a b18c swap, let alone anything else.
Just a GSR swap complete all said and done is going to cost you closer to $3000.
When you do your swap, make sure you have good motor mounts and a good clutch that can handle the boost you intend to add later on.
For $2000 you can do a complete b18b LS swap, with good mounts and a good clutch, but thats gonna be about it.
The b18b will work well for boost later on, go with it on your budget.
Your goal of 400whp for a reliable DD is unrealistic, if you make your goal say 275 whp you will have a reliable DD (assuming you do it right) and 275whp will lay an *** whoopin on an sti or evo.
For 275 whp you dont even need to waste your time and money on building the motor at all.
A stock b18b, with a good clutch, good motor mounts, ensure it has good compression, a good head gasket, and ARP head studs, will get you to a reliable 275 whp on a good turbo set up.
Do the swap, then worry about a good turbo set up.
If you want reliability, dont think you need to build the motor top to bottom to achieve that, what you need is a good quality turbo set up, and proper engine management with a professional dyno tune.
Expect to spend in the neighborhood of $4000 for a good turbo set up that is tuned properly.
A b18c will yeild better results boosted or not, period.
Your $2000 budget is not even enough to do a b18c swap, let alone anything else.
Just a GSR swap complete all said and done is going to cost you closer to $3000.
When you do your swap, make sure you have good motor mounts and a good clutch that can handle the boost you intend to add later on.
For $2000 you can do a complete b18b LS swap, with good mounts and a good clutch, but thats gonna be about it.
The b18b will work well for boost later on, go with it on your budget.
Your goal of 400whp for a reliable DD is unrealistic, if you make your goal say 275 whp you will have a reliable DD (assuming you do it right) and 275whp will lay an *** whoopin on an sti or evo.
For 275 whp you dont even need to waste your time and money on building the motor at all.
A stock b18b, with a good clutch, good motor mounts, ensure it has good compression, a good head gasket, and ARP head studs, will get you to a reliable 275 whp on a good turbo set up.
Do the swap, then worry about a good turbo set up.
If you want reliability, dont think you need to build the motor top to bottom to achieve that, what you need is a good quality turbo set up, and proper engine management with a professional dyno tune.
Expect to spend in the neighborhood of $4000 for a good turbo set up that is tuned properly.
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Re: Reliable Turbo B18
Depends on where you get a motor from... I got an ls/VTEC complete swap with trans, and almost every bolt on imaginable for about 500... but I'm good like that
#13
Re: Reliable Turbo B18
This is true, depends on your resources, but Im assuming were talking about just buying a motor/tranny from some place like h motors online, its pretty tough to find a gsr motor in the junkyard, but if you did it would save money as well, an LS motor can be found in the junkyard and you could get the whole shabang for $500-$600 for motor/tranny/ecu.
#15
Re: Reliable Turbo B18
Cleansleeper- this was more of what I was imagining. Just so everyone knows, the $2000 budget was for the motor, tranny, ecu, and overall motor necessities alone. I will be doing the swap with a couple knowledgeable friends. It sounds like I overestimated on my goals though.
Boosted D- This makes sense. I mean, making good power while not having to upgrade internals up past 300hp. I am still so torn on going with the gsr or ls still. any input on these? most likely, I will be waiting on the best deal that shows its face whether that means searching junkyards or waiting for one on craigslist. I would still like everyone's opinion on the better choice.
I really liked this guys comparison. Follow the link and scroll down a bit. His name is BLU CIVIC. Tell me your opinion on his comparison between ls and gsr. https://honda-tech.com/forums/showth...3051609&page=2
The entirety of my future build will be done my own personal resources (me, friends, and family). I will not need a shop unless i do machine work down the road. To all of you who have said stock internals will suffice up to 300hp, would pistons and rods be a good investment anyway? Like provide more strength and help avoid detonation?
To those who say I need a more reliable turbo setup than anything, what turbo setup would you recommend? How do the Garrett turbos compare to these "4000 dollar" (boosted d) setups? What size turbo would you recommend? I would prefer to have a mid sized turbo that doesn't spool too quick nor too slow. FYI I will be piecing my own kit together due to budget.
I appreciate all of your opinions! Keep them coming!
Boosted D- This makes sense. I mean, making good power while not having to upgrade internals up past 300hp. I am still so torn on going with the gsr or ls still. any input on these? most likely, I will be waiting on the best deal that shows its face whether that means searching junkyards or waiting for one on craigslist. I would still like everyone's opinion on the better choice.
I really liked this guys comparison. Follow the link and scroll down a bit. His name is BLU CIVIC. Tell me your opinion on his comparison between ls and gsr. https://honda-tech.com/forums/showth...3051609&page=2
The entirety of my future build will be done my own personal resources (me, friends, and family). I will not need a shop unless i do machine work down the road. To all of you who have said stock internals will suffice up to 300hp, would pistons and rods be a good investment anyway? Like provide more strength and help avoid detonation?
To those who say I need a more reliable turbo setup than anything, what turbo setup would you recommend? How do the Garrett turbos compare to these "4000 dollar" (boosted d) setups? What size turbo would you recommend? I would prefer to have a mid sized turbo that doesn't spool too quick nor too slow. FYI I will be piecing my own kit together due to budget.
I appreciate all of your opinions! Keep them coming!
#16
Re: Reliable Turbo B18
Garrett and Borg Warner are the best options for reliability.
Go with a Garrett GT30 (900-1300) or Borg Warner EFR 6258 (1400).
I would justify the high prices for purely their reliability. I would justify the BW's higher price because its internally wastegated and has a built in BOV. So that's to things you wouldn't have to buy if you went with the 6258.
I'd still say 2000 is a little low... Expect to pay more for maximum reliability.
Go with a Garrett GT30 (900-1300) or Borg Warner EFR 6258 (1400).
I would justify the high prices for purely their reliability. I would justify the BW's higher price because its internally wastegated and has a built in BOV. So that's to things you wouldn't have to buy if you went with the 6258.
I'd still say 2000 is a little low... Expect to pay more for maximum reliability.
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Re: Reliable Turbo B18
Just sleeves and a port and polish is well over your budget.
Btw, pistons have nothing to do with detonation, unless of course they are high comp. But the tune will be what helps with detonation. Just go with an ls, and arp rodbolts and have the rods shotpeened.
Btw, pistons have nothing to do with detonation, unless of course they are high comp. But the tune will be what helps with detonation. Just go with an ls, and arp rodbolts and have the rods shotpeened.
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Re: Reliable Turbo B18
Pardon me for saying but what you're doing isn't real research. All you're doing is muddying the waters; confusing yourself. Read the FAQs, which I know you haven't done, and then come back with a parts list.
This goal
tells me that you're just pipe dreaming right now. Don't take it too personal but I've seen it too many times. Your first post is all over the place and unrealistic. BTW polling people on the forum for opinions isn't research.
This goal
Accomplishing great numbers is really my goal. Smashing on local cars as well.
#19
Re: Reliable Turbo B18
Sure it is Grumblemarc. I have done plenty of research if you haven't noticed from my first post. A lot of that is thanks to your relentless opinions. And where would we be without your so called "pipe dreaming"?? All of these replies help clear things up for me. Btw, since you are so well tuned into doing research of facts, I would appreciate you linking me to a couple threads that answer the same questions as mine! Thanks in advance!
Other than that, I appreciate all of the input! I will definitely consider one of these turbos. Have to do more research on turbos in general though. I do appreciate the reality check as well. I will be painting my Civic within the next few months and will post before and after pictures!
Btw, if anyone else has input, let me know please!
Other than that, I appreciate all of the input! I will definitely consider one of these turbos. Have to do more research on turbos in general though. I do appreciate the reality check as well. I will be painting my Civic within the next few months and will post before and after pictures!
Btw, if anyone else has input, let me know please!
#22
Re: Reliable Turbo B18
No, I just figured since your ALL knowing, you would have some very informative links stored somewhere up your butt. Anyway, I would appreciate it if you would stop giving me your input! Your "clouding my waters".
Aside from these remarks, anyone have opinions on my questions/remarks?
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Re: Reliable Turbo B18
Car will never get boosted. Not properly anyways. Not unless someone gives him a parts list down to the last t-bolt clamp.
Right now there's at least half a dozen of these posts on the first two pages and none of them want to educate themselves. Just ask opinion polls. Some of them get more answers than others because they don't present attitudes like this guy.
I'm just trying to figure out why all of them keep trying to reinvent the wheel. Don't want to read I guess.
Advice: Find a build thread with similar goals to yours and copy it. Done! It'll have pictures so you don't have to read much. You're not proposing anything cutting edge. It's all been done already.
Right now there's at least half a dozen of these posts on the first two pages and none of them want to educate themselves. Just ask opinion polls. Some of them get more answers than others because they don't present attitudes like this guy.
I'm just trying to figure out why all of them keep trying to reinvent the wheel. Don't want to read I guess.
Advice: Find a build thread with similar goals to yours and copy it. Done! It'll have pictures so you don't have to read much. You're not proposing anything cutting edge. It's all been done already.
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