turbohatch96y7

iTrader: (15)

Stumbled on this




Then seen this

Does it do any harm?

turbohatch96y7

iTrader: (15)

I know its been around a long time.

Freemananana

iTrader: (3)

Only issue I have read with is potential wear and tear on the seals in the turbo. Despite this, I haven't seen any confirmation or denial of that claim (I also never really looked very far). That second video seems to have a ton of liquid floating around. I'd imagine a better atomization would go a long way.

turbohatch96y7

iTrader: (15)

I just read from here Pre Turbo Water Alcohol Methanol Injection

Says at the bottom volvo did a test and after 80k-100k miles the turbo showed wear

Thats plenty of miles

theYBLEGAL

Based on the fact that OEMs are trying to move injectors closer to the combustion chamber, I would think that it would be less beneficial having the water/meth injected so early. Also, running it through an intercooler would cause condensation to occur inside the charge piping, presumably?

Freemananana

iTrader: (3)

80-100k seems more than your typical Honda setup. I don't know many people putting those numbers down.

boosted94gsr

Dude you have e85 available to you. Just run that and be done with it. If I had e85 where I live I would through my methanol injection setup in the garbage lol. I wouldn't wanna spray that through a $1500 gt30 turbo, but that's just me. You can make all the power you want safely with e85 and it's cheap!

Geis

Through? lol
How much does your boost juice cost? I was thinking I might just do 50/50 with alcohol instead (figure I need the cooling since it's a b20 :/)
Nearest e85 is 20ish miles from me, not worth the drive imo especially seeing how I would blow a gallon just getting there and another getting back.

theYBLEGAL

Like $1.28 a gallon at menards.... Winter windshield washer fluid, blue. Lasts a while doin daily

Geis

How fast do you go through it when spaying?
EDIT: What?

theYBLEGAL

Lol. My aem kit shoots 2 stages. I don't use the 2nd stage. It sprays above 3psi. I run the small nozzle. I use 1/8th of the aem tank after 6-7 laps of gingerman. Daily, I use maybe 1/8th of the tank per week if that.

boosted94gsr

Yeah I don't proof read my posts lol. I think I payed about $35 for 4 gallons of boost juice shipped. I have an aem progressive controller, it starts spraying at 2psi and hits full pressure at 15psi. I use a 500cc nozzle and one gallon lasts about 500-700 miles or so, I don't drive my car easy by any means.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

<p>@turbohatch96y7 I've made threads about this before noob... Search lol :p</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>If you are using your typical diaphragm style low pressure pump and shitty nozzles without some sort of PWM solenoid control (Aquamist kits for example) then the pressure fluctuations will cause poor atomization (which the 250psi pumps don't do well to begin with) and the large droplet size will cause wheel erosion.</p><p>Cast wheels will suffer erosion no matter how well the system functions and lower quality billet wheels typically suffer pitting. Some diesel guys have figured out how to get 800-1000psi pumps for pre-turbo injection... The atomization is so fine it looks like fog. I cannot find any info on what sort of pump system they are using although I might have found a company to email regarding the pumps.</p><p>A company called Rice Racing based out of Australia has developed a mechanical pre-turbo injection system using an externally mixing nozzle which is actually quite genius. It's the same kind of nozzle that HVLP paint guns use... The nozzle produces such small droplet size, regardless of boost pressure, that their system seems to have severely reduced any sort of compressor erosion.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><img src="http://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-tech.com-vbulletin/463x341/80-wi_51b85e8044b5c70c2cca933c5d207ac4dccc8b4d.jpg" title="" /><br /><br />&nbsp;</p><p><img src="http://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-tech.com-vbulletin/800x533/80-mini_img_7545_a136e57918376f939543cd232c59dfa8ac49 9fc3.jpg" title="" /><br /><br /><img src="http://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-tech.com-vbulletin/768x1024/80-494516d1364842692_fc_pre_turbo_rice_racing_pics_im g_0394_e801afb7435232ac65c53222303b38042c859016.jp g" title="" /></p><p><br /><img src="http://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-tech.com-vbulletin/1024x768/80-494519d1364842692_fc_pre_turbo_rice_racing_pics_im g_0403_870c835f6cf4ac29230174da3dc62d1a685606fa.jp g" title="" /><br /><br />&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>I have been debating trying that system. However it is worth noting that if you inject any quantity of methanol that over time it will chemically damage the wheel. Some people have had the best results injecting pure methanol as it results in adiabatic compression and shifts the compressor map further right. If injecting methanol in any quantity it would be wise to have the compressor wheel hard coat anodized, something I'm doing to all of my current turbocharger builds in anticipation of testing pre-turbo injection. Just remember that if you inject a sufficient amount of methanol pre-turbo that it will turn into a gas and every time your blow off valve opens it will be releasing gaseous methanol into the engine bay which depending on methanol/water ratio and injection amount could pose a fire hazard and as methanol burns clear during the day a hard one to detect quickly</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Now there is a way to make your typical injection kit more pre-turbo injection friendly. run your pump at its highest pressure setting, use a PWM solenoid to control the rate of injection (injecting too much too soon at low shaft speeds can basically &quot;flood&quot; the compressor wheel) as well as smooth out the pulsation from pump operation, run an atomizing nozzle (in testing CoolingMists new atomization nozzles outperformed every other companies nozzles), and make sure nozzle placement is dead on. Unless you're running a ring that centers the nozzle with the compressor shaft nut (only with highly atomizing nozzles) it's best to have the nozzle 8-10 inches away from the compressor wheel, most people center it in the end of the air filter, as this gives sufficient time for the injected mass to slow down and expand and usually causes any droplets that are too big to drop out of suspension.</p><p>Placing a shitty nozzle close to the compressor wheel virtually guarantees that wheel erosion will happen rapidly but there are other factors that influence compressor wheel erosion. The two most important are injection amount and injection timing and more secondary is what you are injecting.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>If anyone wants to know anything specific let me know as I've spent countless hours researching this subject... Talking to Richard @ Aquamist, digging through water/meth forums, reading articles, and so on. It's way too much info to try and post so ask a specific question and I'll do my best to answer it</p>

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

<p>@Tyler Dirden Do you still have any photos/info/results from your tankless system circa 2013?</p>

turbohatch96y7

iTrader: (15)

Nice

Running pure water, how much more resistant to det would 91 be?

Is it closer to comparing to an octane rating? Say 98 or 105 ?

Tuning- would it be similar to tuning with no2 or is it a gradual increase?

I think my ems can support 8 injectors so im sure it can fire off an injector. I was reading focus flex fuel injectors are all stainless inside and would be perfect for this as they are the ev14 style

turbohatch96y7

iTrader: (15)

E85 plus water? =? =race gas?

Geis

So I'm a little confused...what does running meth injection pre turbo actually do?
Atomizes better before the chamber and perhaps cools the charge? Also, why is it no one seems to every run good ole` alcohol injection?

theYBLEGAL

Pure alky is expensive. It's also more than most people care to deal with in terms of safety. Highly flammable.

Preturbo for atomization due to inferior nozzles.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

<p>Methanol is cheap, I can get 55 gallons for like 125 dollars locally.&nbsp;</p><p>Pre turbo injection is done to reduce compressor outlet temps, increase compressor efficiency, and it also increases mass flow from the turbocharger slightly. Depending on what you're injecting and how much you are injecting allows the compressor wheel to act like a larger wheel at any given pressure ratio/airflow level.&nbsp;</p><p>The problem is if it's done incorrectly the compressor wheel inducer starts to erode which decreases compressor efficiency and if enough material erodes it will throw the wheel out of balance causing a bearing system failure or possibly allowing the wheel to fail at the hub, shearing the blades off in a violent manner.&nbsp;</p>

turbohatch96y7

iTrader: (15)

Answer my questions pls

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

<p>What question?</p><p>oh and you can't use a fuel injector to flow water. They rust up and seize shut sooner than later.&nbsp;</p><p>But E85 and methanol injection is showing gains. Single turbo 2jz Supra picked up 100hp/100tq with E85 and methanol injection.&nbsp;</p>

Flr Power

I can answer your 3 questions, you are lucky. Lol

1- You don’t want to run pure water since best performance has shown that you need 50/50 by weight or 56% meth/44% water by volume. It’s ok to run 60/40 by volume also but not much more than that.

2- The amount of extra octane you get depends on the quantity of spaying water meth, typically 15-30% of the fuel injected. If you spray 25% of your fuel, you pretty much have 100 oct from 91. The final amount sprayed will depend on your set up and if it requires reaching MBT.

3- Tuning with water/meth is a lot like E85, and is the opposite of NO2 tuning. Water meth injection will require some timing to be added past peak torque for sure.
Also, the biggest benefit of water meth injection happens in the combustion chamber by preventing the fuel to auto ignite under pressure, causing knock to occur.

Spraying methanol alone is NOT superior to a mix of water meth.

The best water meth system is made by Aquamist, the others are slower to react but work decent if well-tuned. AEM is good when paired with the water meth failsafe flow gage (AEM 30-3020) but is more work than Aquamist.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Yea Aquamist is really the leader in injection technology. Especially with their control systems.

We've done some testing with mixtures on a friends supercharged lotus exige. 50/50 and 100% water both gave the same amount of temperature drop. Since he hadn't done a retune yet for the 50/50 his datalogs showed no discernible increase in power output.

The only place injecting pure methanol is advisable is pre compressor wheel although it's hard on aluminum. Typically pure water is used solely for the temperature drop.

I'll dig up a few of my older threads on this topic that cover the different methods of pre turbo injection

Geis

I was thinking of making my own DIY kit, seems to be a good amount of information out there on it and successful builds with it.

Will probably end up running boost juice like everyone else, for some reason I thought the alcohol would have been cheaper but I guess not. Also less octane boost and the safety issues.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Pre turbo injection isn't something you can toss together just because you saw some photos.

You have to have an understanding of nozzle placement, nozzle design, injection amount and timing, how the injected liquid behaves when it passes through the compressor wheel and becomes compressed, why wheel erosion happens, and so on.

Not to mention the current diaphragm pumps are totally unsuitable for use because the pressure fluctuations lead to improper atomization and the large droplets lead to an excessive rate of wheel erosion.

There are a few gear based pump options I'm researching for pre turbo use that would eliminate those pressure fluctuations and offer an appropriate maximum flow rate suitable for pre turbo injection.

The one thing almost everyone gets wrong is how much to inject. Unlike standard injection systems that are before the throttle body or direct port manifold injection which follow the rule of 1-2cc per bhp, most pre turbo systems require fairly minimal flow rates, just enough to mitigate heat production during compression. Remember that in this instance whatever liquid you inject gets rapidly converted to a gas. It's this expansion that reduces heat and when the liquid expand into a gas it occupies a large volume of airspace. If you inject too much then the volume of the gas displaces air within the compressor side of the turbo. This replacement of air with a gas means a dramatic loss in efficiency and airflow and thus power. There's a fine line of balancing injection rate vs airflow to ensure that there's a minimal impact on airflow reduction.