Dylan Walsh

I'm planning on getting a 93 civic coupe this weekend for 500 (project car of course)
It has the stock engine and tranny in it and a friend of mine said he would sell me his D16z6 with a ported head and the rest is stock. If the tranny is bad I will either rebuild or get the one he has.
I've been looking around and haven't found any good build guides that use my setup I'm looking at. I'm only looking to make around 200-300whp on e85. With a turbonetics super 60 t3 turbo.
The internals I'm looking at are
Vitara piston heads
Eagle H beam rods
Rod bearings (not sure what brand to get?)
Head studs
And gaskets
I've heard the crank and sleeves should be good around this much power. I'm not looking to build the head or the rest of the engine just yet. I'm only looking for the block build. So if there's anything I'm leaving out I would like to know. And possibly where I could get the cheapest parts at a reliable source.
Thanks for your time

Peng0

I am now in a similar situation. I was not very pleased with the low compression ratio. But according to my calculations it is not at least 7.8. My head and crankshaft d15b, eagle rods and vitara pistons, d15b7 engine block. I get a 8.57 compression ratio if I have not made a mistake in the calculations. In addition, I have bisimoto Level 2.4. My goal 400+BHP for daily driven.
Now for sale Turbonetics 61/62 Ball Bearing Turbo .64 A/R and for some reason I can not find anywhere compressor map for it. The seller said that the number of turbocharger T-3006, but even Google never finds anything with this number, not to mention the official website. If I'm guessing a little bit here is like a turbocharger GO-AUTOWORKS Spec Billet Turbos by Turbonetics I can not imagine without a compressor map how it will work, but I think the turbine wheel 62 is too large for the 1.5 engine with low compression ratio... Actually so I ask advice and opinion, or maybe compressor map for that turbocharger

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

In most cases outside of Garrett or Borg-warner, you're not going to find a compressor map at all, due to their cost of just getting one together for one combination of wheel, much less for over a dozen. Each map that was produced takes about $20,000 or so to create based upon the equipment use, man-hours of labor, fluids, materials, etc. And only if that company feels the need to produce a compressor map, will they do so. There's no manufacturer's requirement that states the companies must produce compressor maps. So, unless you're talking about a turbocharger from the Garrett T-series, GTX series or GTX Gen 2 series (which has yet to be released), don't hold your breath on finding a compressor map for your 61/62.

What you have approximately is what is called the TNX Series (It was a basically an upgrade from the GTK-600 from Turbonetics This also uses the F1-62mm exhaust wheel which is very efficient.

Here's the 2016 Turbonetics Catalog for everyone's review.

http://turboneticsinc.com/industrial...ALOG_FINAL.pdf

Peng0

Ah, here it is like. Now, for me everything falls into place. With experience, you can understand how the turbocharger will work by specification. I have not yet learned to do so. it's never too late to learn.
Thank you very much for the link, but I've searched through their site up and down and found that catalog before asking a question.

Well, now it is necessary to understand whether the ride will be comfortable with this turbocharger daily on d15b...

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Finding the catalog wasn't the point. I'm quite sure you would have found that easily. The question was which series out of that catalog did you have, so that you could further understand how well that unit is going to work for you in this particular build.
The car will feel "comfortable" with that turbo because you won't be in boost MOST of the time. When it does go into any effective boost pressure, in your case, you'll be fighting the car trying to control it more than you would actually driving it..

Peng0

This is a new and interesting view for me. I have always believed that a properly selected turbocharger should begin its work as early as possible and not be blown off to the end. Perhaps this is not quite applicable to the "bright" cars. These vehicles are just boring ride on the road, even if it is good going. When it comes to really high power that was really fun engine should explode at high rpm. Who cares that it's slow on 2000-3000 RPM if I want to arrange a race I must accelerate to the rev limit. I need to take this into consideration, thank you.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

You're not wrong on the black bolded area.

I have no idea what you mean by "bright" cars. Please elaborate.

In the RED text, the word "fun" is rather subjective, but for what I think you're proposing, having it explode at higher rpm actually will cause the car to suddenly fight it's way forward, since you're using the same drive wheels to both propel the car forward and control its steering. I've driven a great many turbo cars over the years, and what is found is that the slightly smaller turbocharger with higher static compression has a better overall powerband will easily out accelerate the overly large turbocharger on a smaller displacement engine with lower static compression. The explosion that many youthful drivers wish for in theory, hurt them in application; by the time the acceleration that is felt by the Big turboed smaller engined setup can get to speed, the other car is already far ahead.

This does not apply to super drag race applications like the MFACTORY EG, simply because they've both controlled that power surge electronically, and have all of the suspension attributes to retain that control and increase speed.

Peng0

Wait, so before I was moving in the right direction. I read your message one more time, there was to be a slight misunderstanding on my part. Even increasing the compression ratio does not improve the situation if I decide to use the 6162? I understand what you mean speaking to fight after the explosion, I do not want this. Everything should be smooth...
So at the beginning of my search, I wanted to use gtx2860 or 63, but the manufacturer does not recommend them boost above 23psi. In fact, I certainly do not know what kind of boost I needed to reach the cherished 400+bhp. But just in case I have spent the calculations up to 32psi:


"Bright" I called really fast and powerful car

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Yes, originally you were going in the right direction, until you veered left, worrying about "explosions" of power... Then you hit a wall. Please, note Peng0, you're missing an entire world in between something that is 40lbs/min like a GTX2860R and something over 65lbs/min that you're proposing using a Turbonetics TNX Billet series 61/62. The turbos are worlds apart in behaviour. The only thing YOU have to worry about when it comes specific boost pressure is whether or not your MAP sensor is going to be able to handle the boost pressure in your management.

Higher static compression assists in being able to have recovery spool a bit more quickly. It isn't the "magic key" to getting a big turbo to try and behave like a small one.
There's about a dozen of possibilities between the two turbos you're trying to list here. For the purposes of everyone else here who reads in Horsepower to the wheels, I'll put in an average of about 16.5% driveline loss for the average user. So, for someone like yourself who wants 400bhp, that means you need about 334whp. That's just outside of the GTX2860Rs range anyway. You need larger on the compressor wheel side, but not by much. The turbine wheel would be the same (using the 54mm turbine wheel in the GT(X)28R family of turbos.

Let's just say that something as large as the Turbonetics you're describing. especially at the low compression you're trying to do, is , well, easy to get 400hp to the wheels or brakeHP, but won't get there until at least about 5500-6000rpmss. That's just experience talking. from using a low-breathing head like a D16 and any static compression from about 8.5:1 - 10.0:1, You also have to take in pressure drop of your intercooler into account when determining the airflow rate, but that's more of an estimate that is needed, and not a truly accurate number, due to the pressure drop is so varied at different boost pressures.

Peng0

Thank you very much for a newly started thread for my question.
I'm still learning to understand what affects the physical size of components of turbochargers. I learned to understand the compressor maps and having them in front of me a little bit can be guided how to work a particular turbocharger. But due to the absence of compressor maps have turbonetics I began to compare what is comparable. Now I have discovered that the compressor wheel 61 is similar to the wheel Garrett gt3582, and the turbine wheel 62 midway between gt35 and gt40. I made calculations and realized that the turbocharger will spool 29psi at 6000+ rpm. Just like you said above. As someone wrote on this forum "wake me when that spool.

I did some research and I think I need a custom turbocharger. For example turbonetics with compressor wheel HPC-54 (54mm / 76mm 50 trim), the turbine wheel F1-49 (49mm / 59mm 69 trim). Due to the fact that the turbine wheel are larger than 54mm in gt28 take the housing with A/R .48.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

You're not completely incorrect, you're definitely going in the right direction again, but I don't recommend the .48A/R in your case at all, especially if you're staying within the GT(X)-R Gen 1 & Gen 2 families for turbocharger choices. (I'd look the other way on the Turbonetics T-300006 TNX 61/62 altogether, here.)

What I'll do is give a full set of calculations to ponder on when it comes to making the bes powerband possible. If you can PM me an e-mail address, I'll gladly give you a snapshot of what I think would work best. Then you can post it for others to see to continue your discussion. Sound good to you?

Peng0

thanks for help. It becomes more and more interesting. In recent days I have found that .48 is too small, the reaction to the throttle will be jerky, and at high rpm will be all bad. I can not find anywhere articles and formulas on the exhaust flow chart, and what determines the amount of these gases.
I found the map of the compressor, which has the same size as that selected by me HPC-54 (54mm / 76mm 50 trim) http://www.turboneticsinc.com/perfor...Comp%20Map.pdf



is my calculations correct?

I noticed that this compressor wheel creates a similar pressure as in Garrett at a lower speed of the impeller. it means smaller A/R to accelerate the flow is not required i think. In front of me another question arises, I need to chois a turbine wheel and housing no more no less, so that the compressor would not create too much pressure when the engine is not yet able to consume it, and at the same time to avoid delay. How to calculate what will be the flow of exhaust gases under certain speed and pressure of the compressor wheel to choose from these data the most suitable turbine and A/R?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

You would use the Turbine Gas Flow maps in order to answer that question, which unfortunately, you won't find a lot of outside of Garrett GT(X)-R series. The good part about that, however, is the fact that the turbine gas flow variables can work with a large range of compresor wheels, so you won't (and can't) get a truly custom combination, unless you're able to make it from individual parts, or go to Turbonetics directly to order. A turbine wheel that's able to make at least 22lbs/min turbine gas flow would do the job for about 10 different compressor wheel combinations off hand I can think of.

Here's an example of a Turbine Gas Flow map. You will not find them on any other company, than Garrett or Borg-Warner, again due to cost.

Garrett GT(X)-R



Borg-warner example:



Holset example:


Turbonetics TNX Wheel line descriptions.


Believe it or not, the 54mm compressor wheel you're describing will do what you need with a standard F1-54 turbine wheel (or 65mm Garrett N13 series, or 54mm N13 GT(X)-R series) will all work for what you're going for.
I'll check those calculations you have there perhaps later on. Still drinking some good EggNog right now..

Peng0

I just had an epiphany. In this statement, I was afraid that the small turbine wheel too quickly roll the compressor. But I forgot for a wastegate that is controlled by the pressure of the compressor wheel. Vicious circle. Therefore, I conclude that the small size of the turbine wheel and the housing A/R influences behavior (backpressure) at high rpm and too big wheel hard to accelerate at low engine speeds. I still have not figured out the trim turbine wheel. I had read that the trim affects the amount of exhaust gas that is able to wheel through the skip itself. Comparing the flow chart GT28 (47mm / 54mm trim 76) and GT30 (55mm / 60mm trim 84) it is clearly visible, but if I take the F1-49 (49mm / 59mm 69 trim) is understanding just leaves me It is midway between the GT28 and GT30 but the trim is less than all, and if I take the F1-54, which is almost physicly bigger than all but trim same 69 I'm going crazy in general. how to handle this? For wheels with a smaller trim select bigger A/R? For flow chart like the GT28 with A/R .64 choose A/R .82 for F1-49 ?
And by the way, I found a recipe for eggnog, and it is easier then choise of the turbocharger, so try it today with my wife, Merry Christmas

Peng0

If my calculations are correct as far as the bad thing that I get 29psi at 5600 rpm? Comparing the graphs of my calculations above, I figured what the power will be achieved on what rpm.

GTX2860R 60mm, 58 Trim:
2.2bar 3700rpm 227hp
2.2 4000 245
2.2 4500 276
2.2 5000 307
2.2 6000 368

TO4E-50 76mm, 50 Trim:
1.0 3600 138
1.1 4000 161
1.3 4500 198
1.5 5000 240
2.0 6000 345

the difference is huge, but at the same time pressure and power on TO4E-50 are growing evenly. Do I need 245hp at 4000 rpm, while I build AWD and deal with that power is not as difficult as on FWD.
Wheel TO4E-50 large enough, billet HPC-54 will spool and flow better, but how much?...

performing the calculations with the map of new GTX2867R GEN II enthralls, but whether it is good...

Peng0

Turbonetics 2014 catalog says that
T3 F1-49 325hp
T3 F1-54 400hp
T3 F1-57 475hp
T3 or T4 F1-62 550hp
and HPC-54 BILLET 22374 inducer 2.121, major 2.818

New 2016 catalog has no data about it... Knowledge base https://turboneticsinc.com/performan...knowledge-base to.
The store offers a compressor wheel with the same code HPC BILLET 54mm (22374), but somehow trim 50. The wheel with the dimensions from the 2014 catalog should have a trim 57.
I was confused...

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

You're placing too much emphasis on the "trim" number. It's simply a difference in diameter between the inducer and exducer. With those sizes, it makes little difference.

The exhaust wheel liar ratings are to the crankshaft and are being conservative. The exhaust wheels are actually capable of much more than listed.

Stick with the F1-57 turbine wheel or similar size and profile for your goal..

Peng0

After studying these catalogs, I also decided that 57 preferred 49.
No, it's not just the trim figures. inducer 54mm and trim 50 means major 3.0in and it's bigger than 2.818, more productive and later spool like I understand...

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Can't have it both ways. On a d-series. 400whp will mean later spool.

Peng0

Late spool so bad, but what is the size of the compressor wheel . one wheel, one part number but different sizes, one like Garrett 71 and second like 76 . or it is a new type - spool like 71 and flow like 76

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Please clarify that statement if you would, please.

Peng0

HPC-54 BILLET with part number 22374 from 2014 catalog have inducer 2.121 and major dia. 2.818(71mm)
and HPC billet 54mm with trim 50 and part number 22374 may have major dia. 3.0 (76mm)
one part number but different sizes. how can it be?
2.818 would suit, but 3.0 very productive for me I think. The part number is the same, believe the old catalog or the new site?

Here, I mean, maybe it's a new type of wheel with the old number and the new features. Flow like 76mm and faster spool like 71mm...

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

More than likely a typo. Catalogs get misprinted all the time.

Peng0

I have no respond from Turbonetics on email I wrote. We were able to communicate with them in instagram, but when I asked a question about the size of the wheels, because there is no accurate data on the website and catalog I has not received an answer. And a few days later I found that now I'm in the black list. Excellent support, I decided not to buy turbonetics. :D

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Seriously? You were blacklisted because you were simply curious as to the information that they had provided? I'm really sorry to hear that. What a horrible thing.