to be honest i would replace the valve guides. if not the valve seals will continue to prematurely go bad. see what the machine shop says and good luck

 

I had the machine shop put brand new valve guides in along with new valve seals and a 3 angle valve job.

In searching I found one of your old threads about a smoking problem you had that ended up beeing valve seals. I hope that's all my problem is. In the thread you said your car smoked under acceleration witch doesn't sound like valve seals but ended up being your problem. My car smokes bad one first start up and under acceleration...

 

So did they replace the valve stem seals, or did they put the old ones back on? You seem to have conveniently forgotten about them.

 

They put brand new valve stem seals in. I don't know what brand they used tho...

 

maybe they got them mixed up?

the intake valve stem is 6mm the exhaust is 5.5mm maybe they put them on the wrong valves?...

 

Ya I think that could of happened. I pulled the exhaust manifold again after driving it and took a better look. Exhaust valves #3,4,5,6,&8 are definitly leaking oil the stems are coated in oil, the others are dry. I'm fairly confident it just the seals causing my problem. I'm going to have my dad drive it tonight while I follow him in a different car to see exactly what driving condition causes the smoke.

 

For that head to be leaking that bad with all new hardware it has to be installation error.

either the machine shop got the valve guide height wrong, they cracked or knicked the od of the valve guide holes in the head, the valve guides are the wrong od, the valve guides themselves are damaged, the cylinder head has one or more cracks around an oil passage, or they really fucked up installing the valve stem seals.

or your valve stems could be worn in the area where the stem passes through the seal and guide, although leaks on 4 cylinders makes me think it's one or more of the above.

 

Goodness! That sounds terrible! I'm going to talk to them tomorrow about it. It really sucks when you pay someone good money to do a job and they **** it up this bad! I'll keep you guys updated on what they say.

 

Had my dad drive the car while I followed him. The car smokes the most after taking off from a stop after idleing and also smokes under hard acceleration.

 

Sounds like valve seals to me. It's cheap and fairly quick if you have the right tools.

 

I have this handy little tool. Should make for an easier time. I love tools like this that make life easier.

 

what shop did the work?
do you know for certain that they have real world, hands on experience with honda cylinder heads?

I think this whole scenario goes beyond "the seals were installed wrong" and it falls on the shop and/or their suppliers and i'll tell you why

Intake valve stem diameter - 5.48mm
Exhaust valve stem diameter - 5.45mm


While it is possible that the the intake valve stem seals were installed on the exhaust side it's highly unlikely that the exhaust side was installed on the intake side..

The larger diameter valve stem would not fit through the seal without damaging the seal, dislodging the seal from the guide, or both.

If by some twist of fate both of the above happened you would have much bigger issues. Since they would have now turned the fitment between intake valve and seal into an interference fit. The excess friction and heat from this would cause rapid and premature seal and valve stem wear, possibly to the point of seal and/or valve failure.

not to mention it would put more load on the valve springs, retainers, rocker arms, and camshaft lobes. Possibly causing premature wear on those components.

On the cylinders that have leaking exhaust seals, are both valve stems in each cylinder leaking/covered in oil? or is it just one in this port, both in that one? The port that doesn't have any visible oil, is there residue on the valve stems?

So here's what might have happened.

1. The shop didn't know that the intake and exhaust used different size seals and installed the larger seals on every guide
2. They ordered 16 same size seals because of the above lack of knowledge
3. They ordered the wrong thing
4. The supplier packaged/shipped the wrong parts.
5. They ordered and received the right seals, didn't know about the size difference, and just installed whatever seal they picked up on whatever valve guide they were working on.

You need to call or go by the shop, tell them what's going on, show them photos, and then tell them you talked to a lot of experienced Honda engine builders and the consensus is the seals are incorrectly installed and/or damaged.

If the shop tells you the head needs to come off then tell them they have to pay for it (and if it's your DD I'd suggest they provide a rental car or some form of transportation until the issue is fixed) because if it is the seals they can be replaced with the head on the motor.... here's how.

pull the spark plugs
thread an air line with fitting into the spark plug hole one cylinder at a time
turn whatever cylinder you're working on to TDC
pressurize cylinder to 100-120psi (air pressure keeps valves sealed against valve seats so they don't drop out of the head)
remove cams, valve springs, retainers, and locks
remove valve stem seals, inspect and measure to determine if damaged and/or incorrect size
replace ALL valve stem seals
Reinstall valve springs, retainers, locks, and camshafts
re-time motor
PROFIT

 

wantboost thank you for clarifying the valve diameters.

those tools are easy to use. im cheap so i made my own.


just be careful not to have a keeper fall into the block

 

I always put a small magnet next to or under the retainer just to catch a keeper if it falls. Normally they'll stick to the retainer or the keeper groove in the stem

 

I should have clarified, the diameters I posted are the stem seal diameters but that's basically the same size as the stem if you ignore the minimum/maximum stem diameters in the FSM

 

Thanks for the replies guys. Black Eg that tool you made is awesome! Wantboost thank you for taking the time to explain everything so well. I will answer your questions the best I can.

Looking into the exhaust ports cylinder #1 looks normal no oil just normal carbon everything is bone dry, #2 & #3 are wet with oil I can see were oil ran down both valve stems and the chamber is coated in oil (everything looks wet), #4 only the valve closest to the trans is leaking (so bad it seems to have washed the carbon off the valve stem) and the other valve in this port is bone dry. More then half this port is coated in oil and looks wet.

A local machine shop called Keller's did the work. They told me they have a lot of experience with honda engines. My neighbor just had a Honda cylinder head rebuild by them and it turned out perfect, this is why I went there.

I am going to stop by today and talk to them. I'll let you know what they have to say. Thanks again for all the help guys. Its very appreciated.

 

Just stopped by the machine shop and explained the situation. They are giving me $100 back and providing me a full new set of valve stem seals. They use S.B.I. seals witch I've never heard of. Its kinda of weird they show the same part number for exhaust and intake seals...
I already ordered a new set of super-tech seals so I think I'm going to use those instead. At least they have different size intake and exhaust seal sizes lol.

 

They aren't the only company. Cometic uses the same P#'s as well, and I had zero problem with seal install.

 

i like the viton seals personally, it's pretty hard to kill the viton material.

 

Got around to pulling the cams. I removed the valve springs on cylinder #4 exhaust side (this cylinder had one leaking and one not). Here is a pic of the valve seal that was leaking. You can clearly see it was installed incorrectly. Its not pressed down all the way and its not sitting straight.

Now my question is should I just press it on all the way straight?? Or should I remove them and install all new ones?? They have 50 miles on them total...

 

I would replace them. Better safe than sorry

 

If it was loose, chances are it has a funky wear pattern in it now. Just replace them all since you're there.

 

Ya I'm going to replace them all while I'm in there. Better safe then sorry. I'm getting tired of ripping this thing apart lol.

Another thing I noticed (on the valve pictured only) the valve guide itself is not pressed in as far as all the others. It probably sits an 1/8" higher and the valve seal will not install flush on the bottom like the rest. Looks like they messed up on valve guide install too...

 

Just got done swapping valve train on my gsr heads. Fucken hated it. Those keepers are a bitch to put in. I have the eurosport tool also.

Use a lot of engine lube and some long tweazers.

Next time its going to the shop lol

 

If the seal was on crooked then the motion of the valve moving up and down likely wore a funky pattern into the seal. replace them. If you have doubts then replace them all, a new set of 16 is less than 20 dollars. I'm not sure how the shop that did the work would incorrectly install a seal. unless someone was in a hurry and just not paying attention.

I would expect the shop to cover the cost of the repair since it's their error. especially if the head comes off the motor. I'm assuming you can take the head off and reinstall it... so I would expect that the cost of new seals and labor to be covered, as well as a new headgasket. since there isn't really a cost for your labor I would expect to have them buy me a beer for my troubles lol.

you can't install a valve stem... those are part of the physical valve and have nothing to do with what the shop did... do you mean the guide? it's possible they got the installed height wrong. but otherwise I'm not sure what you mean.... did they do anything to the valve seats?