wantboost

iTrader: (2)

So I've been going through my build plan for the F22A1 my 1990 Accord. Plan is to build a high compression stock sleeve engine and make around 450-500hp on E85. Now I got this car for free January 2014 and drove it until it started complaining. It developed leaks around almost every gasket and some valve stem seals started leaking to the tune of 3 quarts of oil a month, top that off with the crank pulley separating in July and I figured it was time to start making plans.

The main goal here is to do a "budget" build since I'll be using as much as I can from my collection of spare parts from other builds and finding the most affordable options for other parts I need. One area of cost minimizing is the internals. Nippons cast K pistons caught my eye because they are affordable, surprisingly strong, durable, and work with the F series engines. Along with 4130 H Beam rods and 3/8 ARP 2000 bolts the cost of internals comes in just under 500 dollars.

The piston I'm looking at is their version of the K20 Euro-R PRC piston in an 86mm bore.





Here is a quick breakdown of the features:

Cast using a centrifugal method with hypereutectic 2618 alloy
6 step heat treatment
Hard anodized dome and ringlands
Teflon coated skirts
Cryo treated straight wall 22mm pins
Slightly larger and deeper valve reliefs than standard PRC casting
Hastings or NPR rings (not sure which is better in this case)

Nippon "rates" them at 600hp although I'm not sure what arbitrary method they are using to come to this power figure. The OEM pistons are already pretty strong, I think we've all seen what D-Rob and others can get out of stock internal K20s. These pistons use the same alloy, heat treatment, and casting method as their Vitara pistons and those pistons are incredibly strong although you can't make a direct comparison since the piston design is different.

They don't list the dome volume (seller was going to measure for me but I never heard back) but knowing they result in a static CR of 11.5:1 in a K20 I worked backwards and came out with a dome volume of +6.6cc. In the F22A1 this yields a static compression right at 12.01:1. I'm also not sure which brand of rings is best for this application, the 2 choices are NPR and Hastings with the Hastings being 20 dollars more. Obviously I wouldn't try and run that kind of compression and power on stock open sleeves. Anyone who knows me will know I was very wary of the CSS/CNC-WERX sleeve systems at first but since I've seen how well they work I was going to have the block sent off for the process.


So who thinks making 500hp with these pistons in a CSS block at 12:1 on E85 is doable? I can post the entire build specs if that will help in formulating an opinion.

Update 12/18. Added tentative build plan

Block

CSS/CNC-WERX sleeve support (unsure which is the better process, opinions?)
86mm Nippon K20 PRC pistons
Private label SCAT/Probe 4130 H beams w/ 3/8 ARP 2000 bolts
King bearings
Balance shafts removed

Modified stock crank:
FFWD Connection "Butcher" Process ( For a description visit www.ffwdconnection.com/butchercrank.html ) *possibly, depends on budget*
Micro-polished journals
Teardropped/chamfered journal oiling holes
Removal of ball plugs, clean/hone oil passages, replace ***** with pipe plugs

OEM oil pump:
Kaizenspeed balance shaft delete
gasket matching and casting cleanup
WPC treated oil pump gear
Possible shimming depending upon final bearing clearances and oil pressure

Head/Intake

Mild port and chamber cleanup, gasket matched ports
Supertech K20 valve springs, tool steel retainers
Camshaft regrind - undecided (Delta 272, Colt tri-flow, etc)
Bisimoto adjustable cam gear
Ported K20 RSP intake manifold
70mm or 75mm throttle body
Phenolic gaskets
Intake manifold stud kit

Drivetrain

T2T4 LSD Trans (converting from auto to manual)
XTD 10lb flywheel
XTD Stage 5 "Xxtreme" clutch 495lb/ft capacity
- 4 puck sprung cerametallic friction disc
- 2300lb pressure plate
Looking for stronger axles - might contact InsaneShafts regarding making them
Innovative mounts

Forced Induction

Forced Performance cast DSM turbo manifold
Forced Performance TD06SL2-20G (ETT Billet compressor wheel, Ported shroud cover, improved thrust bearing oiling)
Turbosmart dual port IWG actuator
Hood exit exhaust/wastegate dump
PWR intercooler, 12x24x3 core, dual backdoor 2.5" inlet/outlet
2.5" charge piping
Blow Off Valve - TBD (I have a few to choose from)
STC oil feed inline filter

Engine Management/Fueling (parts list still being developed)

AEM EMS 30-1000
Walbro 450LPH E85 pump
Injector size TBD but will be Bosch EV14 based
Aeromotive FPR
Denso BCS
K series high flow fuel rail
AEM 3.5bar MAP sensor
GM open junction IAT sensor
High pressure water/meth injection
Innovate wideband
Ethanol content analyzer
Misc gauges (boost, egt, oil pressure/temp, etc)

Miscellaneous/undetermined

Still figuring out crankcase ventilation
Debating using block fill to fill the sleeves level to the bottom of the water pump port for added stability
Deciding on if I should cryo/WPC treat certain parts
Still planning remote oil filter and oil cooler system: Line routing, filter placement, cooler placement, etc

Unsure if OEM crank damper is sufficient with the weight reduction of the rotating assembly and increased RPM range
or if I should look into an ATI or Fluidampr (H22 fits F engines). I've used a Fluidampr on a B series before and we have an ATI on our C6 Z06. Both work well but don't know which would be more appropriate?

D-Rob

If they're as durable as the OEM Honda PRB's, I can tell you how good they look with E85 and 750-800hp or so for extended periods.

They're stronger than the PRB rods, that's for sure.




Make 500hp on E85 and enjoy.

bcintron95

I also plan on using NPR Pistons on my GSR turbo build. If they are made with the same materials as those Pistons above^ that would be awesome.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

D-Rob you the man lol.

From what I understand the alloy, casting method, and heat treat method makes them a bit more durable than certain OEMs they copy. Add in these have coated skirts and domes which will reduce friction in the bore and reduce the amount of heat transfer into the piston and I think 500 is an acceptable level. Plus if/when something goes wrong I can pick up another A1 block, send it to CSS, and get rods and Pistons for under 1k I can afford to experiment a bit. The A1 block is fairly stout to begin with. The added cooling effect of E85 along with water meth (testing has shown size able gains on E85) should also mean less thermal stress on the piston itself.

This build is purely a street car. No drag racing, no track days, maybe a bit of fun on the highway here and there and trips to the mountains. I shouldn't have to turn the engine beyond 8,000 to get the kind of power I want although final rev limit will just depend on where it wants to stop making power. The A1 head flows crazy well so I'll just be cleaning up the ports and gasket matching them. I'm also having a cam done and I'll be using a K RSP intake manifold in place of the shitty stock manifold. So the engine itself will be as efficient as I can reasonably make it.

I might bump up the power later down the road but it would be done in small intervals so I don't go full retard and blow something up. I'll post the full build as I have it planned when I get back from the dentist.

D-Rob

Don't even bother with the water/meth on top of E85 on your application, it's just another complication.

E85 is all the combustion cooling you need for a setup like yours.

Get a group of guys together and fly me in to tune the ******, and we will have a grand old time.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

The methanol injection is really for when I have no option but to use 93 which obviously the boost pressures would be turned way down. The E85 station 7 miles from my house is the only station within probably 50 miles. So unless I keep 5 gallon VP pails in the trunk full of E85 I'd have to use 93. There might be other stations I don't know of because there aren't any in the E85 station locator.

I would probably have you tune it. I don't know of any good Honda tuners around Atlanta. Especially one who could tackle a high compression E85 turbo build and not feel nervous/tune too safe. I could always trailer the car up there haha.

TravisBiggie

I believe too many people under estimate cast pistons.

Using cast for my 450-500whp setup.

ESP.net

Correct me if I am wrong here. But the K20 nippon ebay pistons are OEM type r K20 replications? 11.5-1?

This would have a compression ratio of 11.5-1 with a .026 thick headgasket. 4.25cc dome and compression height of 30mm?

With OEM F22A headgasket thickiness of 50K thick... your compression would be 10.8-1.

The mystery is what is the dome CC of these nippon pistons 11.5-1?

Yes far as strength I have also been looking at these for a NA application with F20B and 2.3L Crank and Rods.

With the F22 crank and rods and this piston your Piston would be in the hole 20k/.020 quite a bit

The better route is the F23 Crank and Rods... gets piston deck level.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Dome on these is 6.6cc. These are a copy of the Euro R FN2 pistons which have a slightly larger dome. The 4.25cc dome is shared by virtually every *standard* K20 and comes out to right at 11:1 static.

None of my math indicated these would be in the hole that far. I also don't plan on running a thick head gasket. I'll go over my numbers again and post them up.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

So my data plan is almost tapped out for the month so I put everything in Zeal real quick.

With an 86mm bore and .026 head gasket I get right at 12.01:1 static. A .050 gasket lowers that to 11.3:1 or there abouts. Piston actually sits .020 out of the hole/above deck height. I don't know what this means for P2V clearance as I haven't nailed down a camshaft profile yet but with stock size valves and the size and depth of the valve reliefs on the pistons I doubt there will be an issue. Even if there is a clearance problem running a thicker head gasket should remedy it.

I'm going to get the specs from Delta on their 272 regrind so I can do some simulations and calculate P2V. I am interested in Colts Tri-Flow profiles but their online catalog never works so I'm going to shoot them an email although with what I can find from researching their regrinds aren't cheap (300-400+) whereas Delta charges under 100. Before I paid buku dorrah for a regrind I would bite the bullet and hit up Bisi. I am going to talk to Derek (DDTECH) about what he could get out of a regrind. The Delta 272 will obviously perform better than the OEM profile but I think with the static compression ratio and other build factors that a custom regrind will have the best power/torque potential.

I guess the best part is since F parts are fairly cheap and the car being free I can afford to do a bit of product testing here and there. I basically plan to drive this car till it falls apart or someone makes a reasonable offer on it lol.

D-Rob

Ah, well, if you are going to be using dinosaur juice, then OK.

Bring it on up. I had a gentleman from the All Motor forum drive down from Halifax, Nova Scotia back in 2009-2010? That was a drive.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Yea I figure it's good to plan ahead. Getting stuck somewhere without E85 and no water/meth either means flatbed or friend with a trailer, bribe friend to bring me E85, or pull a charge pipe.

Granted I don't know how the engine will behave on 93 yet.

I'm hoping by the time I have this thing done me and my dad are done fighting so I can borrow his trailer lol.

ESP.net

Wantboost... I think your math is wrong piston would be in the hole 20k/.020 when theres a -/minus that is out of hole compression height 30mm

With H23A1/F22 rods... 20K in the hole. H22 rods... 39k out of hole and super high compresson even with a huge thick gasket of 80k.

Would not be a good choice unless you are F23 and using F23 Crank and Rods... then its deck level...

which will not work in a 50mm mains F22A block

Aradin

This thread is giving me ideas. Nippon Type-S pistons and forged F22 rods would put me around 12:1 on my JDM H23A. Could run a thicker headgasket to drop that too.... I already have the boost and meth injection. Wonder if the pistons would hold up to ~450whpish.

ESP.net

Aradin....Nooooo lol H22 Type S? K20 Type S...

H22 Type S Nippon yes will bring you at 12-1 compression with piston out of hole 20k. To compensate would need 50K thick headgasket atleast. Brings down to 11.2-1 compression

LASTLLLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY these Nippon pistons are OEM replications supposively... replicated the H22 Type S piston... and using would be dumb for boost... OE ringlands are week... by design most likely.

People are talking about K20 pistons because supposively the design is stronger then H/F stuff...

Either way however you want to look at it... if you can get the piston close to deck level... and overall compression to under 11-1 with headgasket thickness then and only then would this may work and last in a higher then norm turbo compression... Lastly and ideally having a headgasket much less then 90k/.090...

As I see it only setup that would work without having a WAYYYYY to thick headgasket is the F23 Crank 55mm mains and Rods (length). Then K20 piston would be deck level.

Aradin

They're not exact replicas. They have teflon coated skirts, anodized deck, & case hardened pins. They're also balanced sets. Claim to be safe for nitrous. Boost is easier on parts than nitrous so should be fine for boost as well. Keeping the combustion cool is what helps keep the cast pistons alive. They are many 350-400whp+ H series that have survived for many years totally stock.

But anyway. Cometic sells a .051 thick headgasket and that's what I was looking at. The rods would probably have to be custom. OEM Type S floating pins are .864 and the forged F22 rods take a .866 pin. Can't imagine .002 of play would be a good thing.

I'll stop threadjacking now.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Hmm now I have some thinking to do although personally given the "***** and giggles drive it till it dies" attitude of this build I'm fine with having the piston .020 below deck height. 2 hundredths of an inch is negligible and I don't see it having that big of an impact. If it were above deck height (don't know how I didn't catch that negative thing lol. Jaw infection has me all distracted) then I would definitely be worried.

Plus before I went through the bullshit of sourcing F23 stuff I would either bite the bullet and grab an H22 or F20B.

With the PRC pistons on F23 rods and an F23 crank the piston sits level with the deck but static compression is just under 13:1. Not even I am that brave however a .050" HG brings it down to 12.1:1

Added the current build plan in the original post, still not 100% firm on a few things.

ESP.net

Yes taking 20k off block would still have a super high compression.

The best bang for the buck would be these piston... with F20B auto motor $500 or less then put in F23 crank $150 and F23 ebay cheap rods $220 with ARP bolts. Nippon K20 pistons $220. 86mm. Then you got a 97mm stroke... with the F20B it has iron sleeves so no FRM worries.... Then don't have to worry about the G23 stuff far as coolant ports in the head and block or water pipe mod out back. Since using all H stuff.

If you were to do this your compression ratio would be 12-1 with normal .026 HG. In order to boost on it safely and get a compression desirable about 10.5-1 compression would need a 80k thick cometic MLS HG.

Doesnt scare me too much. I have been boosting with pistons out of the hole since 2008 on the H23s 20k out of hole and a 60k thick cometic MLS HG. Both 500 whp pump gas and reliable.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

I'm not talking about taking anything off the block. 20 hundredths below deck height doesn't bother me. I would run it as is. I know I can run 12:1 all damn day on E85 with a proper tune.

The other thing you're forgetting about with any of the F23 internals is an absolutely shitty rod ratio of 1.48:1. At higher RPM there would be so much side loading on the skiers from the rod angle that scuffing and cylinder wear would be unavoidable.

I'm not going to go through the trouble of buying another engine then having to source yet even more parts from another engine. I would scrap the car before I'd consider doing that. This car is simply a toy. I would drive it till something happens and either sell it or take the engine out and other parts off and crush it. With the way the turbo I'm using would respond on the A1 I would already be making more torque than the tire size could handle, lengthening the stroke would make that even worse. Not to mention the added displacement would push the turbocharger out of its efficiency range and I'm definitely not about to buy another turbo. I have 2 other turbo choices besides my 20G but I'm certain the 25G would be way too laggy for what I'm looking for and the other one is a an older STC model but the turbine starts to struggle with efficiency past 350-400.

Or were you talking to Aradin lol?

ESP.net

Talking to no one in general...

Stroner parts... R/S ratio high 1.3x doesnt scare me...

Was referring to F23 China H beam rods as well.... wouldn't ever chance any build with stock F23 rods...

Natural Aspirations

Dear Baby Jesus WantBoost you STILL havent built a motor? Dont you feel guilty wasting everyones time with these threads and posts?

I will tell you your missing a key parameter in using those pistons.

ls joker

lol. looks whos back. what you been up to

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Haven't been able to get the head off due to some pain in the *** head bolts that refuse to die. Going to get a cutting torch for my oxyacetylene rig to solve that. Then I can finally work on the engine. Plus I've been going through never ending personal **** that has left me financially unable to do anything and hasn't given me any time to work on anything car related.

What exactly am I missing?

Natural Aspirations

Not back, just dropped by for a drink

Natural Aspirations

For one your missing a feature built into the piston to reduce rocking and how to overcome it.