1997 honda civic dx
1998 B18c1
garret t3/to4e
tial wg 9 pound spring
hondata stage 2
rc 550's

after getting my car tuned at Godspeed in Novi, MI I relized how much I loved turbo's but became kind of depressed because of how bad i thought turbo honda's ran. The car was terrible down low before boost kicked in. It would bog, sputter, and I would have to down shift to get up to speed all the time and part throttle was terrible. They had told me the A/F was 11.1-11.5 all the way through the power band and put out 288.2 hp. They used a dyna pack to dyno it. After getting fed up with how it was running I took the car over to Payn Technologies in Troy, MI. He through it on the Mustang dyno and ran a base run. I was happy to see that they had no problem with me being there while they tuned it, whereas Godspeed forbid me from being there during the tuning (kinda shady). after hooking up his wideband we completely understood why the car was running so bad. before boost built (1.5k-3.5k) the A/F was 16-17.5:1 so it was running lean as ****. In boost it fluxuated between 9.5-10.8:1. The base run put out 220whp @9psi. after 4 hours of tuning he got 11's all the way through the power band, fixed the random missfires and put out 252whp @9psi. I took the car for a test drive and it was amazing. The motor ran so smooth from idle to redline. there was no all of a sudden boost when the turbo kicked. It was so smooth as if I had just bought it from the factory. Night and day difference.
So to Payn Technologies in Troy, MI. http://www.payntechnologies.com/

I'll have power and fuel graphs up tomorow for all who care to see.

 

^I think he only does dyno tuning now
The best way to contact him is by email.


I've been kind skeptical about going to godspeed. Haven't really heard anything great about them, not like I did about Payn. I really hope Payn is still open when I need to get tuned again, my car drives so nice. Hes a pretty cool guy too, really nice.

 

Interesting........... I've been around both for almost 10 years. And all I can say is, Interesting....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TheShodan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Interesting........... I've been around both for almost 10 years. And all I can say is, Interesting....</TD></TR></TABLE>

What's that supposed to mean?

I got tuned by Payn two summers ago and they did a great job on my hondata. Devin did my tune.

 

Tom did my tune and ya they are only taking dyno appointments. best way is by the email adress on their website. I was driving it all day today, the part throttle is just so smooth

 

yeah i heard tom is only tuning on weekday nights and weekends on appoinment only.

 

I heard that devin is no longer at payn..

 

Who tuned it?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TheShodan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Interesting........... I've been around both for almost 10 years. And all I can say is, Interesting....</TD></TR></TABLE>



Never seen anything short of amazing from turbo honda's at godspeed

 

Payn/Tom has tuned a few of my motor's...

Did an excellent job, nice guy, and was treated well. I highly recommend them aswell.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MI KENT &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I heard that devin is no longer at payn..</TD></TR></TABLE>
hes not.

 

so who is tuning now...tom?

 

Thanks Styleteg.... Much appreciated, hence my slight reluctance at a response, until now.

FOR THE RECORD:

Please note that the following comment is in no way defaming Donkiman, nor any particular shop that is being referenced here. The opinion that I'm stating below is strictly through knowing these individuals on a personal and professional level, as well as observation and methodology of their use of EFI-101 technology for the last 7 years or so. If there are BEEFS or comments about what is being posted below, I will not and refuse to get into any Internet arguments over this topic, nor will I respond in any way to semantic or sarcastic comments, so save your keystrokes


I remember seeing Donkiman's car at the time of this particular dyno and setup at godspeed last year during its dyno debut, and though I applaud the efforts of ANYONE assembling their own particular turbo setup, I was a bit disappointed at the craftsmanship of the installation, and saw that there would indeed be some issues that would eventually raise their ugly heads, most noticably the intercooler piping assembly, and several exhaust and vaccum leaks. Perhaps Dan at the time was in a particular frame of mind, for of the several years I've known him professionally, he has never demanded that the customer wait outside of the dyno area during the tuning process. If anything, he has always requested the owner of the vehicle to stay within distance to inform him of any changes or quirks or challenges that he may find necessary to tell the customer. This way the customer can see it first hand as the process continues. (The only exception to this rule is if there are too many other people with the customer that may cause a distraction within the dyno area, in which only THEN does he ask them to take a step or 2 back, but not the customer themselves.)

I also remember at the time that the dyno was slightly recalibrated to utilize the TAILPIPE sensor as a form of A/F reference since Donkiman did not have a wideband 02 sensor bung hooked to his downpipe at the time, and though Dan 99% requests that the bung be pre-installed, it was not a total necessity due to the fact that he is using it as a REFERENCE for tuning, and would request that in the future a customer ensure that they have this equipment present. Tom on the other hand has always charged EXTRA fees for the installation of the wideband 02 sensor Bung and setup on the dyno. Dan has always made his tunes rather on the rich side be it tailpipe sensor or wideband because he (as well as I) truly go by the credo of keeping the cylinders cool, by having extra fuel. This keeps detonation at bay, and reliability at its maxium at all times. Donkiman is the first individual in MI that I've seen NOT have a positive result from Dan's dyno tuning experience See it here: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=958555 and I quote:

I was so pleased with the results. The hp curve is pretty consistent all the way through with no real sporatic jumps or dips. the torque curve on the other hand hits 160 ft/lb at 3300 rpm and then goes up gradually after that. the car is so ******* fast and I am now addicted to turbo. First gear is too crazy its gonna take alot of practice. After 4000rpm the tach just slams to 8000 so fast its almost impossible to shift at the desired rpm. 2nd gear just roars as the turbos already spooled

Now, having seen this, it begs the question, what had changed during this time period b/w Godspeed, and Payn? On hondata, 99.9% of the time, the data will not corrupt itself (I should know, for I had the system at one time), and we don't know if you cleaned up the small gremlins that were from the original tune, If the Mustang dyno was recalibrated without SAE correction (which DOES occur based upon the owner's ethics), or if any parts were added, substituted, broken, or leaking within this entire year in between tunes. Something in this story just isn't adding up. I'm not calling anyone out, hence my inital response of Hmmm....Interesting........ I saw the file that Donkiman had from this particular tune. It seemed very well put together to me.

Tom has been in the business just as long, and though is competent in many regards as well as professional, has a slight tendency to push it to the edge on the tuning aspects of the motor. Devin, was always as about as conservative as Dan in his tuning and has always had a great record. I'm not going to get into this debate of what tuner does better than whom, for most of us in MI know how sensitive this topic gets and has entire forums in which everyone is verbally trying to rip one another's guts out (It's almost like gang warfare out here)

My point of this entire Soap Box preach is this: Donkiman, you must take great care in these particular comments of what you believe which shop is worse than the other. Many people here view these boards VERY carefully and frequently, and will point out any discrepencies in your tale of tuning your particular setup in order to gauge the truth. Sitting here stating that Tom may have fixed some problems that were due to some shop when they could have actually already been present BEFORE the tune made by Dan, or not filling any timeline gaps in your car's driving history could easily cause some serious raised eyebrows on the board. Based upon your original statement in the beginning of this thread, I do find these accusations MORE than a little suspect.... I've had MANY people tune their turbo hondas w/ Godspeed with others present at the time of the tune, and find that your particular scenario seems to be the only case that has ever been present with this information.

I normally NEVER get into such a debate, nor take a stand on any side of this. I understand that people have certain experiences with other individuals and companies and some are good and some are bad for whatever reason. Some is legitimate, others, need to have the OTHER side of the story viewed, and not just a limited post of a thread. That is the way that customers and businesses work (I am not immune to that at all). But there needs to be a line drawn about the report of such experiences in terms of making sure that the facts come out, and not just one's vented anger towards some entity or individual because of lack of understanding of a subject or an unpleasant experience. That only shows the tip of the iceberg. If one is to tell the experience of something, please tell the WHOLE story, not just make it onesided so that everyone can be well-informed.


Regardless. Good luck with the car Donkiman.. I'm sure you'll enjoy it, either way.



Modified by TheShodan at 7:48 PM 6/28/2005

 

I understand what your saying. let me fill the timeline gap. It took me all of last summer to get the motor and turbo in and I got it tuned at godspeed the day before I left for college. I just got back from college 6 weeks ago. the car had not been started since. I have heard of these bugs in the hondata too though. dont get me wrong, at WOT dans tune felt great (very rich, but still felt great and was safe). The whole reason why I took it to payn was because part throttle was terrible. It would pop, stutter sometimes and lean out big time and just had no power before the turbo spooled. when on the dyno the second timewe saw why. im not discrediting godspeed's tuning as I also know some happy customers. Perhaps I did not mention that I wanted a full tune that was for daily driving on the street (as there is a huge difference between running WOT down the track and being in traffic). when I posted that original comment after the tune that you quoted me on that was right after I got it from the shop. never been in a turbo car before, and was pounding it all the way home because I could only drive it that day. I remember that day the same you do. I remember he was tuning the cars that night, as he did not have time to do it during the day and told me that I just simply could not be there while he tuned it. He did say it only took an hour and a half. anyways im not looking to get in an argument iether I was simply stating my experience.

 

Ok. Now that sounds a little better.. You weren't able to go into the area, for he was the only one there at night. That was a valid reason. Based upon the time frame and budget, he only tuned for WOT, because of either you did not have the funds ready for the entire tune, or he was pressed for time, and could only do the WOT at the time. Perhaps there was a schedule conflict or your session was delayed until the evening in which he more likely stated that he couldn't finish a full tune. That happens to many people regardless of whether or not it was Payn, Godspeed, or some other facility. It's not that it was not well tuned, it was because it was Not COMPLETELY tuned. But that doesn't make him a bad tuner...

Thank you for responding in an adult manner on this, and taking the high road.. I know that no one wants to start arguments.

 

at the time i did not know there was a difference between a WOT tune and a full tune so i didn't know to request a full tune. he never told me anything about an incomplete tune nor did he mention a WOT tune. he just said it runs great. but that is most likely what happened because the WOT was great but the part throttle was trash. anyways sorry bout the controversy

 

No problem. It seems in this case that the partial throttle wasn't trash, it just was not performed due to a time constraint.

 

Interesting thread...

For being an outside unbiased observer &lt;who clearly knows the in's and outs and spends a fair amount of time at the shop apperintly&gt;you sure are trying hard to defend godspeed and ensure there is no liability being put on them regardless of what the deal was between the cutomer and them at the time for poor tune.

In the end the customer went there expecting the car to be tuned perfectly as we all do, and didn't know any better then to make sure everything was done to his liking, ie. part throttle tuning, wot, etc... and then later found he was unhappy with his service, as the car stumbled horribly in anything aside from WOT.

Regardles of the shop or tuner involved, this customer had an expectation of a decent running car with proper WOT tuning. It sounds like he got good WOT and 0 attention to part throttle, and if the customer noticed it, then sureley the tuner did aswell. So then the tuner just chose not to clean that part up a bit, or metnion it to the customer because he didn't get explicitly advised or paid to? and let a car leave the shop running poorly in the most used part of he powerband?

So his post seems valid and doesn't need to be broken down and intricatly worded "fairly".

I don't think Payn did any kinda of magic that Godspeed couldn't of done, it just seems they spent more time in the part throttle stuff and cleaned up the WOT a bit sicne the previous tune. In the end the customer was happy, the car ran good in all conditions and was exactly what he wanted. Sounds more liek what I would want from a tune I was paying for.

Either way as mentioned above both shops have lots of well tuned cars, and repeat customers. It seems in this case the cutomer was happier with his tune and service at Payn and wanted to share his experience for anyone looking for opinions on where to go. Not to defend his opinion on what he was happy with.

So perhaps for your next unbiased adult opinion toss a few unbiased comments in there to make it seem like your not all for one side, and trying to defend "your place of preferance" with a hint of bitterness twords the other.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by donkiman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I just got back from college 6 weeks ago. the car had not been started since. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Well gee, the car hasn't been started for a year and it runs ruff???? Maybe you should've checked the gas Captain Obvious. Both can tune, Tom at Payn and Dan at Godspeed. As far as the track record debate I have heard more cars from Payn explode and the faster imports in MI come outta Godspeed. I don't wanna know or even debate on that subject. All I ponder is...Why on the dyno for 4 HOURS??? To fix a sputter problem and gain a couple more horse, no, but to simply take your money! And this thread is BS because Dan at Godspeed NEVER requests the customer to wait inside or forbid they be there for the tuning, you can do a head stand on your valve cover singing I'm to sexy for my shirt for all here cares when the car is gettting tuned.

my .02$

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by revhardsi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">All I ponder is...Why on the dyno for 4 HOURS??? To fix a sputter problem and gain a couple more horse, no, but to simply take your money!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
In all fairness, my car was on the dyno for a good 3 hours and I was only charged for one and a half.
I'll agree Payn is a bit more expensive than competitors, but I don't believe that hes simply trying to milk as much money out of people as possible.

 

i agree....first time my tune cost me 360 from payn, but second time around he only charged me 240 for about 30 min less then the first time i had it tuned...so no devin did not milk me either....as far as godspeed goes, I was allowed to be there next to my car whatching it getting tuned...I just that it happened that my car started to detonate after my tune at godspeed , and since the knock sensor told the ecu to retard timing, I ran like ****.... NOT TO GET ANYONE PISSED, THIS KIND OF STUFF HAPPENS...AND COULD HAPPEN TO ANYONE, I GUESS, BUT THIS IS MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, AND IT HAPPENED TO BE GODSPEED THAT DID MY TUNE...SO i'M JUST STATING FACTS....ITS UP TO YOU ALL TO MAKE YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS.

although payn costed me more money, I had it tuned there 3 times with no prior issues...call it coincidence if u like....but this is MY expirience only

 

he charged me a flat rate which would have been the cost for 2.5 hours. he took an extra hour and a half to get the job done right and didnt charge me a penny extra. our buddys N/A gsr was on the dyno for 6 hours putting out 190whp stock bottom end. and read the rest of the thread before you make accusations about an event that you were not present at.

 

Maybe looking at the details closer would help explain why he got a WOT tune instead of a part-throttle also...

Notice he did it at night, after hours, probably as a favor (Dan is a nice guy). The day before the customer had to leave for college (again probably a favor).

My guess is that dan mentioned WOT tune but donkiman not knowing the difference may have dismissed it. I have seen dan spend hours tuning an NA honda, part throttle and all. There is no reason he would have not tuned part throttle also if he had the time.

As far as as_fast_as_u - there are many things the can cause knocking (which is the word I am sure you are looking for, as detonation would more than likely blow your motor) that are not directly related to tuning. Note that it "stated" to get knock, it wasn't knocking on the dyno.

 

Tom is definitely a very thorough tuner. He spent over 3 hours with me when he tuned my car. My car was a different animal when I drove it home. It felt like a factory turbo-Honda...

I've also heard positive things about Godspeed as well.

Either way, I'm glad you are happy with your car now.

One important thing about this thread is the different dynos. The dynapack does not give WHP, because the wheels aren't on the car and there is no rubber to roller contact, or any of the parasitic losses associated with a roller type dyno. The HP number from the dynapack is to the hubs. Most research labs use Mustang dynos because they give a very repeatable result and more of a 'real world' WHP number.

 

But Jan, Even I've started to use the dyna-pak and even the Dyno-Dynamic, and whp can be calibrated as well.. It's kinda changed a little the last couple of years. The one thing that the Mustang was bad at doing was measuring knock. The rollers sometimes were so loud that the knock sensors misinterpreted as knock, and in some managment systems automatically retarded ignition timing.

ooooo.. We're starting to get a good discussion now..........YAY!!