Legion

So considering that (a) I'm not a sponsor and (b) I need to protect my financial interests, I can't actually divulge too much information.

However, I'll tell you what I can. I do electrical engineering and design prototyping for an aftermarket tuning company. I'm working on a drop in replacement for the Honda IAT sensor that will blow away anything on the market in terms of accuracy and response time. However, I don't know what the preferred packaging method is. Due to manufacturing costs, we can only go with one design.

So please, let me know what you guys want. I'm throwing in "OBD2 style" for posterity, even though I'm not sure if there's any use for it since it will likely pop out on cars running high boost.

1. OBD1 style - has two screws that secure it to the intake manifold.
2. OBD2 style - pressure fit only. Easiest to install in charge pipes.
3. OBD2 style w/ clamp - basically just an OBD2 style that will be adapted to fit through a worm-gear/t-bolt style clamp to secure it in place. Probably the best combination of installation ease and security, albeit the most unsightly method.
4. Threaded - like the GM variant. Able to be threaded into charge pipes or intake manifolds.


Seeing as these sensors are fast response, and not laggy like the OEM sensors, maybe the best bet would be to keep it in the intake manifold instead of the pre-tb charge pipes? I don't know, I'll let you guys decide. Open poll.

Turbo-charged

i wouldnt even consider obd2 style with or with out a clamp


obd1 or threaded. threaded will be most universal obviously


if i was making it, and it was possible, i'd try to make it 1/8npt since anything and everything seems to have a 1/8th bung on it somewhere.

.dave

I vote threaded as well. OBD2 style sucks and the OBD1 is a lot more difficult to adapt onto a lot of setups (have to make a flange instead of just a threaded bung).

96 GSR-T

isnt the AEM/GM a 3/8 thread? Def threaded would be the best

SOHC_MShue

Threaded without a doubt. I'd buy one for sure

Legion

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rota92 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Will it be priced somewhat around the GM sensor? </TD></TR></TABLE>


Depends on a number of factors at this point. I'd like it to be around $60 to be reasonable.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Those things are CHEAP and most everyone upgrades to them if you have an EMS capable of taking care of it. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, they are cheap, however they aren't the best design, and they don't follow the Honda resistance values. My goal is to have a drop in replacement that won't need software calibrating.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Will it also run the same voltage range as stock so a user running, say either freeware or like an S100 can also use it?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yep

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think the threaded unit would work best, as most people interested in something like this would most likely have an aftermarket TB with ports right in it </TD></TR></TABLE>

That's what I'm thinking, but the downside of metal thermistor housings is that you need to find a very good way of insulating the sensor or else it will get heat soaked.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Turbo-charged &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i wouldnt even consider obd2 style with or with out a clamp</TD></TR></TABLE>

Eh, I know, but injection molding a plastic housing is so much easier than making a metal housing .


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if i was making it, and it was possible, i'd try to make it 1/8npt since anything and everything seems to have a 1/8th bung on it somewhere.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Legion

Looks like the consensus is a metal housing. I can also build a small LCD display that shows the temp, if there's demand for it.

maddog20

Threaded I'd buy one today!

Legion

Ok, well it's time to play pretend. Let's pretend that this is 1/8" NPT instead of 1/4" NPT, and let's pretend that's a thermistor in the end and not a diode, and let's pretend that's an IAT harness and not an injector harness . Just something I threw together real quick.

But that's about what it would look like. I'm thinking it would make the most sense to have the plug at the end of a small (5" maybe) extension since many people aren't going to mount it in the factory position.

What do you guys think?

&lt;image removed&gt;


Modified by Legion at 1:08 PM 3/4/2008

.dave

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Legion &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ok, well it's time to play pretend. Let's pretend that this is 1/8" NPT instead of 1/4" NPT, and let's pretend that's a thermistor in the end and not a diode, and let's pretend that's an IAT harness and not an injector harness . Just something I threw together real quick.

But that's about what it would look like. I'm thinking it would make the most sense to have the plug at the end of a small (5" maybe) extension since many people aren't going to mount it in the factory position.

What do you guys think?

[img]https://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b195/Russell218/iat_prototype.jpg[img] </TD></TR></TABLE>

Looks pretty good.

You'd definitely get a lot of sales from people running boosted D16Y8 setups.

Legion

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .dave &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You'd definitely get a lot of sales from people running boosted D16Y8 setups.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Why y8's in particular?

blinx9900

seems like a good idea.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 GSR-T &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">isnt the AEM/GM a 3/8 thread? Def threaded would be the best</TD></TR></TABLE>

my aem one is threaded but its threaded into a weld in bung on the chargepipe. would there be an advantage of using this over the aem unit?

Legion

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blinx9900 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">would there be an advantage of using this over the aem unit?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have to be careful and not make this sound like a sales pitch. Honda-tech isn't very tolerant of non-sponsored advertising. This thread is simply to get a feel for what you guys want me to make

.dave

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Legion &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Why y8's in particular?</TD></TR></TABLE>

They have the crap OBD2 push in IAT sensor and the aftermarket intake manifolds don't have any provision for the OBD1 sensor. So if you have a boosted Y8 you have to either rig something up to run the OBD1 sensor, run the OBD2 in the intake tube and hope it stays in, or do what I did and run the GM IAT sensor and mess around with the fuel compensation inside Hondata/Neptune/whatever.

maddog20

will it have the factory connector?

Legion

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by maddog20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">will it have the factory connector?</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's the plan!

CoreyR

honda makes a threaded IAT sensor. my friend bought a JDM B20 and it had a threaded (1/4" NPTish) IAT. id agree threaded is the best bet although most manifolds have provisions on them for an oem.

.nate

Yep the other threaded Honda IAT sensor that I know if is on the 2001ish 4cyl Accords

.dave

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CoreyR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">honda makes a threaded IAT sensor. my friend bought a JDM B20 and it had a threaded (1/4" NPTish) IAT. id agree threaded is the best bet although most manifolds have provisions on them for an oem.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Threaded isn't the main advantage. Having a faster responding sensor with the OEM scaling is.

.nate

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .dave &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Threaded isn't the main advantage. Having a faster responding sensor with the OEM scaling is.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I fully realize this. I believe that is the main point of the thread.

OP: Send me one and I will graph out a side by side comparison vs the OEM threaded sensor on a boosted motor. I'm curious how much faster it really is in actuality...


Modified by .nate at 9:34 AM 3/4/2008

CoreyR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .dave &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Threaded isn't the main advantage. Having a faster responding sensor with the OEM scaling is.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i never said it was, nor was that what this thread was about. i was talking bout the packaging of the internals.

Legion

Factory IAT sensors aren't fast on ANY Honda, I don't care if it's threaded or not. The thermistor they use is built for durability, not response time.

It's one of those "you can't have your cake and eat it too" type of situations. Thermistor response times are rated by their time constant. The smaller the thermistor, the smaller the time constant. Also, any barrier between the thermistor and the air is going to slow the response time even further.

It's a simple concept really - you want the air as close to the center of the thermistor as possible to achieve fast readings. The toss up is that the thermistor is very sensitive, and exposing it leaves it vulnerable to handling damage.

So the Honda IATs not only use large epoxy filled thermistors, but they have an (insulating!) layer of plastic over them that further kills response. I'll have to test them, but I'm guessing they have a time constant of about 20 seconds.

Bosch is on the right track, having the thermistor exposed to the open air, but they still used a very large glass bead, which slows response time:
http://www.bosch-motorsport.co...F.pdf

Bosch doesn't disclose their true time constant, but it's probably what they're calling their "response time" which is about 5 seconds. The thermistors I'm getting made will have a time constant of about 1 second. In an intake tract, where the air is flowing, that means it will only take a fraction of a second to log IAT changes.

Furthermore, the design I'm using will minimize heat soak. That's a big reason why IAT sensors are inaccurate. I think that's also why we'll find that people actually log IAT changes with Hondata intake gaskets, which I have never believed to actually drop IATs.

Legion

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .nate &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">OP: Send me one and I will graph out a side by side comparison vs the OEM threaded sensor on a boosted motor. I'm curious how much faster it really is in actuality...</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'll definitely send a few out to some beta testers

Legion

The only downside to my design is the durability factor. The tip of the thermistor is exposed, and it's a very small glass bead. If you so much as TAP it on any hard surface, it will break. That's the trade-off for achieving a minimal response time. I guess I'll just have to trust that you knuckleheads don't start breaking them.

.dave

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Legion &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I'll definitely send a few out to some beta testers </TD></TR></TABLE>

In for beta testing.

I looked at running the Bosch sensor for a while too, but the response time of 5 seconds kind of turned me off. Then again, I had no idea what the stock Honda sensor's was but I figured it was at least this as well.