wantboost

iTrader: (2)

So as many of you might know I've been in the process of building a car for road course use. The chassis in question is a 97 civic ex coupe.

As I've been looking at the chassis more and more I think it would be a bad idea to make this particular chassis into a track car. It has relatively low mileage for it's age (124k on chassis) and it's never been in an accident, no dents, body is totally straight, no rust, and it has a 2 year old perfect black paint job.

In order for me to do what needs to be done for a circuit car it would no doubt require destroying the paint finish... something I'm not too keen on doing. Plus the chances of damaging the car on track are something to consider, as I doubt I could find another 96-00 chassis this clean that has never been in an accident.

So I was thinking about just building a mild motor for it and have a 400ish hp street car and find another 96-00 or 92-95 civic coupe chassis and turn that into a track car. I just can't justify ripping my current chassis apart given it's condition.

Also the first motor I build is going to be a fairly mild 11:1 piston/rod lsvtec, stock sleeves, built head, billet wheel'd gt2817r, gsc t1s, itbs, etc. I got everything for the build for free and it would allow me to get the car on the road while giving me time to work on the big motor.

once I get the chassis where I want it I'm going to be building either an 84mm Darton MID sleeved gsr or ls block with an 89mm crank, built b16 head, dry sump, blah blah blah... the 11:1 motor I'll put into my accord.

I'm currently trying to find a happy medium for the compression ratio for the second motor. Something that will be ok on 93 octane with meth injection and something that will also work with VP Q16 for track days (street car will see casual track sessions) I'm looking somewhere between 12:1 and 14:1. Obviously if I go on the higher end of the compression ratio I'll de-tune the car to keep the motor intact. As far as turbo choice I'm leaning towards a gtx3076r or similar billet comp wheel turbo (no precision junk). I really like the overall gtx3076 compressor map and turbine efficiency, plus with the gtx I can run 30-40psi to make a mind numbing amount of torque.

and before you say go e85, it isn't readily available here in Georgia, we have a total of 4 stations in the state, the closest of which is about 60 miles in a direction I never travel. Plus I can get 55 gallon drums cheap.. I can get 55 gallons of methanol for 140 picked up locally, around 110-120 if I buy 3 or more. I can also get VP Q16 or any Sunoco or Torco race fuels in 55 gallon drums fairly cheap (600 local for 55 gallons of Q16)


Once the 2 liter high compression motor goes in the car it won't see much street use, as I have 3 other DDs. Just the occasional mountain run, weekend drive, and track session. So I may very well just keep the motor on race gas and methanol the whole time.

thoughts?

4genaccordfreak

I don't see a question anywhere..... lol

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

I'm just trying to figure out if it's worth it to build another chassis... I'd much rather hack apart another car that isn't in such good shape.

My civic has been apart for 4 years now, 1 of them due to a house fire so I haven't been able to work on it. I just want it running and driving at this point.

I think I'm gonna toss this motor together and get my engine bay done and go from there, that will give me time to finish the motor I really want to build. but I'm having a hard time deciding on the compression ratio for said motor.

I also got the accord for free and all I need to put the first motor in it is motor mounts and 5spd stuff. it's currently auto (boo) and the original plan was to 5spd swap it and turbo the f22a1 but now it looks like it's starting to burn some oil and I don't see the point of rebuilding that motor, especially with stock internals when I have another motor I can put in it for only a few hundred dollars.

plus I need to get the civic done so I can start working on my s13 again and get my bike done. so I'm willing to put a motor in it just for the sake of getting it running. the y8 that was originally in it fell victim to stereotypical rod knock.

4genaccordfreak

I had this dilemma with my current EJ1.

I have a gnarly street engine ready to go back in this year since my last engine was destroyed, due to (stock) sleeve failure at about 430whp with aggressive ignition tuning.

I have pondered turning this into a dedicated race car that could be setup for both drag and circuit racing..... but..............

The chassis is gorgeous, I am the 2nd owner, was mostly garage kept, 100% bone stock unmolested awesomeness (until I got ahold of it), although, did have high highway mileage on the stock engine (which was quickly swapped out). EVERY BOLT/NUT, INCLUDING SUSPENSION (rear LCA) came out of this like brand spanking new, something you DO NOT see up here in Canada with rough winters and lots of moisture.

I was so torn for a long time to rip this car down to bare nuts and cage it, the whole 9 yards. But due to the condition, I just can't do it. It would be like beating up your own child (in a weird sense). Or maybe I just cherish my car in its condition and streetability.

Regardless, If I was in your position, I would find another chassis, that you won't be so pissed off or worried if you scrub paint with someone battling for position.

Just my 0.2cents


As for compression, take the lowest you would go and the highest you would go. (ie. 11-14 c/r) then go in the middle. Boom.. 12.5c/r done..

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

see I'm starting to feel the same way, especially if something happened to the chassis during the build.

it's just hard to find a clean car to start a build with that hasn't been wrecked or beat to ****

OneBadTurboCRV

My thoughts are to quote a country song "A lot less talk, and a lot more action..." or something like that. It is just a Civic and if you really do have 3 other daily drivers then who cares about this one? Enjoy the car you have and get some use out of it.

All this coming from someone who has only put around 3k miles on a car in about 3 years and on it's 3rd engine. And no, not from any engine failures I just get bored easily and have WAY too many spare parts. It is getting very old having it sit. The longer it does the more I contemplate selling everything off again.

4genaccordfreak

It IS just a civic, but any TRUE enthusiast, racer, tuner, car lover in general has soft spots for mint chassis', no matter what brand or model. I can vouch for the same feeling. My chassis albeit just a 93' EJ1, the condition of it gives it exclusivity (to me) and fellow Honda lovers and I get complimented on how mint the paint/condition of it, these days it is a rarity. The "enthusiast" in me doesn't want to ruin that on a track.

Dark_Teg

GSC T1's and ITB's on a 400hp build seems like a real PITA. Using methanol to extend the capabilities of your fuel system is a bad plan. My brother had a micro switch fail on his Snow kit resulting in a torched piston. I had the AEM pump fail resulting in catastrophic failure on my Mustang.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

See I'm in the same boat, I'm tired of having it sit and I have entirely too many parts, I could literally build this motor 5 different ways lol.

the only thing my civic needs is to get the engine bay, engine, and harness done. I was in the middle of stripping the bay to bare metal and shaving it, as well as cleaning up my harness when my house caught on fire. it's been sitting there a year without me being able to work on it. I can't bring it to the rental house because the garage is in the basement and the second driveway isn't paved. car is too low to roll it down the hill.

the accord is my main daily at the moment and since it runs fine for now I'm not going to touch it, although it did recently start burning a small amount of oil and I'm not sure if it's rings or valve stem seals... plus since it was free and I plan on eventually swapping it I don't want to toss money at it right now.

my dad is using the ranger as a shop truck and I get it back in June once he gets a new diesel Colorado.

I might be able to keep the civic at our shop for a few months since the house that caught on fire is on the market and I have to move it but it can't stay outside with the engine bay down to bare metal.

the fire has really screwed my plans up, haven't been able to work, etc. due to dicking around with our insurance company. luckily I'm starting a new job soon.

it's just a matter of getting settled now but once I am I want to be able to jump in full force and get the damn thing done.

I'm starting to think I'll save my ITBs for the big motor and just run my ported skunk2 im and 70mm tb on the 11:1 motor. turbo choice already means good response, I think the ITBs might be too responsive for such a setup, maybe.

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

Too responsive? There's no such thing!

Also, you might uh...want to merge your threads. Maybe.

this one
the other one

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

yea I just did it, it never showed up on my pc, only my phone... And I only clicked new thread once. weird

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

I'm not using either kit, I'm simply going to use a pump and my standalone will control the delivery amount and timing. I've never had an issue with methanol injection, we even run it on our 650rwhp c6 z06 on top of Sunoco oxygenated 100 octane with no issues but I sure as hell would never use an AEM product lol.

GSCs aren't an issue, I know how to tune for cams like these.

ITBs also aren't an issue as I know how to tune for those as well but I might save them for the big motor.

turbomaniac

IMO i would try to make one car with 2 stage boost control (700 hp, and 450hp) with a GTX3076 turbo and limited sleep diferential. Chassis can be ok with the proper roll cage and chassis -suspension supports

i would prefer a b18 block with 84 piston, datron sleevs and b16B head.

if you go to 12-14 CR you sould use cams that will keep the DCR not higher than 11-1. But IMO 12 is ok, you will have enough exhasust gas to boost well the GTX3076 at 10-12 psi for the track days and 30-40 psi for the drag race. or you can use GTX3071 for 400hp low pressure and 650hp high

if you have two cars it would be more proper but it would be also a pain in... always set em up, etc and o course much more expensive..

What do you need the track days anyway? lol

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

I don't drag race, I road race.

I'm also about to start working at a road course where my family is a founding member, so free track time.

I don't care about having multiple cars, I've had 20 since I was 14 (27 now) and I currently have 6. It's not a big deal to me to build multiple cars, I've been building cars with my family since birth basically and as such I have vast parts resources and hookups within this industry, I only have 15 motors, roughly 25 turbos, etc. All I do is build cars and bikes, it's kind of my zen thing. I can spend hours, literally days in the shop just working... no breaks, no sleep. I was lucky to grow up in a racing family. Having our own private shop helps too but it's a good drive from my house so I couldn't just work on the car when I want. However, when I get close to finishing it I'll tow it over so I can get it on the lift

I was originally going to cage the civic, 12 point, firewall passthroughs to the strut towers, bellcrank suspension (have all the components), etc. But I'm leaning heavily to not chopping up such a clean chassis... After all it does have a 5k dollar paint job on it that is literally flawless and when I start hacking it up I would have to repaint the car or wrap it in vinyl

with the engine I'm building and the fuels I plan on running I'll have multiple power levels.

wet weather/cold track would be 15-18psi on 93 and methanol injection (70/30, 50 50 is for pussies lol), heavy traction control (4 wheel speed sensors)
dry weather/street use would be 18-25psi, again on 93 and 70/30 meth, no traction control for the most part, maybe boost by gear.. but I'd have to run such a low spring rate I couldn't turn the boost way up
dry weather/hot track would be 25-40psi on vp Q16 along with meth. This would obviously be on non dot legal soft slicks as I could never hook up on street tires.

This of course is with the big motor, the first motor I'm building I'll reach the limits of the turbo (billet 2871) before I reach the limit of the fuel. So I don't see much point in running race gas in it unless I can go very aggressive on ignition timing to pick up some torque.

Although after reading Global Time Attacks 2014 rules and 2015 proposed rules I need to go back to the drawing board on the suspension system as my car wouldn't even be legal in FWD Unlimited (the class I plan to run) because their rules state the suspension system must stay within the strut tower, i.e. no inboard mounted suspension. I have a small fortune in coilovers and stuff, I built custom Penske units when I worked at Traxxion, roughly 14,000 dollar coilovers. Maybe I can make new mounts to keep them in the strut towers. No matter what I do though I'll never be able to run in SCCA or NASA events... car would simply be too wild. So I'd be stuck doing track days and GTA events

turbomaniac

i thought street racing was illegal lol

if you have so meny parts why dont you make me a donation? lol

i have little experience with cars but i think i have more experience in life, so d suggest to find out what you realy wanna do and what you were always dreaming to do and stay focused on it. If you want to run SCCA or NASA or any other competition you can make money by doing what you like proffesionaly and do whatever you wish. As they say the sky is the limit so go on for it...

i know one thing for sure: there s nothing we cant do, the limits we think we have are only other people's opinion.

OneBadTurboCRV

Why would you think this platform could possibly be too wild for SCCA? Are you talking Solo II or which group?

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

He said road racing, not street racing...

turbomaniac

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

I haven't read the rules for this year but last year's rules meant I couldn't even enter. namely with the cage passing through the firewall and my proposed inboard mounted coilovers.

but yea I do have a soft spot for pristine chassis, my s13 coupe is the same way. never been drifted, no accidents, dents, or scratches and it has a minty fresh black paintjob (all of my cars are black except for two which I'll probably wrap in black) when I drilled the body for my 50mm overfenders I almost cried lol. It's getting an insane built sr20 and I might cage it... although my friends will give me all the free s chassis I want so I might just leave it as a street car and start with a bare shell for my FormulaD build. I plan on being the only competitor without sponsors lol.

Hopefully I can get my civic over to the shop in the next few weeks but I have to clean it out to make room since a lot of the extra parts for the z06 are laying everywhere.

I really want to build my civic and s13 side by side, I've done a lot of builds this way and I like the challenge, although finances might kill that dream.

me and a friend had a huge 15,000sqft shop in downtown Atlanta where we built everything from svt cobras to supras, 240s and skylines. we kept getting broken into then our landlord stole all of our stuff which killed that business. he kept 2 of my chassis and wouldn't give them up... he ended up selling them and despite me having titles and bills of sale I got fucked.

So now I keep all of my chassis but it does suck not having a lot of space.

OneBadTurboCRV

At least in my area that have classes for those kind of modification and above. There is always the "unassigned" class as well. However, I do know every region is different and if you don't have a class then that sucks haha.

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

Am I correct in assuming you're in the Southeast division for SCCA? What type(s) and class(es) do you, or are you planning on, running in? I'm right on the border for Southeast and Northeast divisions...if our type and class are remotely close, it would be fun to have a little bit of forum rivalry