the naked truth about big time horsepower...
06-01-2004, 06:09 AM
#1
Thread Starter
the naked truth about big time horsepower...
Stolen from EFHonda.com
This article is from the latest Sport Compact Car Magazine. The car in question is Hasport's K20 turbo EK Civic.
There's a 455-hp Civic on our cover. Let's take it for a drive.
Step 1: Drive to the gas station. Four hundred fifty-five hp uses a lot of gas.
Step 1.1: Oops, pump gas won't work. Detour to the local sandrail shop for a tankful of C16 leaded race juice instead.
Step 1.2: Not so fast. Pumping C16 into a street car is illegal. Even if they would look the other way, the large-diameter leaded pump nozzle won't fit in a Civic's skinny filler neck.
Step 1.3: Drive to the auto parts store for a gas can--slowly, so you don't run out of gas. Naturally, all they have is a 2.5-gallon can.
Step 1.4: Fill the can. Fill the car. Fill the can. Fill the car. Fill the can. Fill the car. Fill the can...oops, car is full. Put the full can of gas in the hatch and drive carefully.
Step 1.5: Pay $85 for 10 gallons of gas.
Step 2: Prowl the stoplights for a victim. An STi would be funny. Or maybe a Z06. Better yet, a Viper. Power-to-weight, remember? Fate inevitably lines you up with a cheerleader in a Cavalier. Oh, well, gotta warm up on something.
The light goes green. Polly prissy pants finishes dialing her phone, looks up and tries to remember which pedal makes it go.
Gas, clutch, finesse. The Civic is so light that even off boost, the front tires scramble for traction and you pull even with her driver's door before the turbo finally comes alive. Wham! The engine is bouncing off the rev limiter in a blink. Grab second and...wait. There's hissing. The turbo is doing something. Wait for it...wham, rev limiter! Damn, she's pulling away! Grab third. Nail it, hiss...whoa, actual acceleration. The engine strains, the tires pound over every crack in the pavement, ready to snap an axle with all the strain. The steering wheel yanks left, then right--don't run into rear bumper as you pull even again! Wham! The tires break loose again and the rev limiter hits. Grab fourth, hiss, wait...oops, red light.
The cheerleader gets there first.
Skid to a stop next to her, engine idling with tense impatience, rear hatch rattling in sympathy, a faint whiff of smoke wafting around the edges of the hood. Your victim-to-be looks over quizzically, faintly wondering what all the noise and smoke is for, then rolls up her window so she can hear her boyfriend on the phone.
Step 3: Drive home and think about balance.
A 455-hp Civic is a dick-swinging achievement of engineering, and a fully justified excercise if you have a business plan, but before you start building your own, consider the consequences. Even though you can switch to low-boost mode and run pump gas, the quest for a big number introduces compromises that ruin the drive. The injectors and turbo still have to be sized for your dyno conquests. That means a rich idle--since the huge injectors can't meter out small doses of fuel accurately enough--and the lag of a monster turbo. The occasionaltankfuls of leaded gas poison your expensive wideband o2 sensor and cat (if you have one), not to mention the air. And then there's the fact that after one 455-hp dyno pull and one 117-mph quarter-mile pass, this particular Civic barfed it's guts all over the ground. Oh, sure, with more prep time and a lot more money you could make it live longer, but you can't make more than 225 hp per liter truly reliable.
So why do you really want a 455-hp Civic? Are you just trying to be an Internet hero? Photoshop and an active imagination work just as well. Wanna be on the cover of Sport Compact Car? Too late, we just did the 455-hp Civic thing. Fact is, unless it's a purpose-built racecar, a 455-hp Civic is just automotive self-service.
Nobody will worship you if you build a 250-hp Civic, but your car will actually be much better. Little things like boost response, part-throttle driveability and traction are useless for Internet one-upmanship, but they're everything behind the wheel. This is why my own Silvia makes a lowly 280-ish hp at the wheels while any self-respecting 'Net maven makes twice as much. I don't want to be your hero, I just want to enjoy my car.
Start thinking this way and you start coming up with some very different plans. I was recently daydreaming about a real-world MR2 Spyder. Our long lost project car managed to pull more than 1.0 g with perfect balance and a comfortable ride. It was only lacking power. This is where most project daydreams would go wrong. You dream up a turbo, but then the rods go shooting out the side of the block, so you dream up a built bottom end. You have to dream up an intercooler, but with no airflow back there, it has to be air-to-water. That means a pump, a reservoir full of water, and a big cooler in front of the radiator. Oops, now cooling is compromised.
Suddenly you've dreamt up 300 hp, but now that perfectly balanced car is a terror to drive. Touch the throttle and you're backwards in a ditch. Now you need big rear tires, but that means a widebody kit. Looks like you're in for paint and bodywork, too. In the end, you might was well park it on some mirrors and pillow stuffing; you just built yourself a show car.
Here's what happens when you aren't trying to impress anybody: First you realize the car is really good as is, so you shouldn't change much. An extra 50 to 70 hp would be plenty to make it fast. Remember, this thing only weighs 2,200 pounds. Then you start thinking supercharger. You'd get linear throttle response and TRD already makes one.
But wait. Why are we willing to accept a 6-psi supercharger with no intercooler, but not a non-intercooled, 6-psi turbo? At the same boost level, a properly sized turbo is more efficient, so it should work better without an intercooler. Even better, a non-intercooled turbo could be bolted on without removing the engine, which you have to do to bolt anything on the intake side of an MR2 engine.
We tested a 6-psi, non-intercooled G20 built by Jim Wolf many years ago and boost response was so quick, you honestly couldn't tell it was turbocharged. It just felt big and powerful. All the hardware you need is a manifold, a turbo and a pipe. You don't even need a blow-off valve at 6 psi. This is cheap!
That G20 only made 170 hp, but it made lots of torque all the time. Flexible, responsive power would be perfect for the MR2's nimble chassis, but it would probably roast the inside tire on any corner. Order up a nice, smooth, helical limited slip and call it a day. Your car is done. No widebodies, thanks.
Now the clencher: A turbo is a pretty effective muffler, so you could just run the downpipe into a catalytic converter, than a short resonator, and out the back. Eliminating that big, stock muffler opens up a big hole in the back of the car. Maybe, with a little clever fiberglass work, you could add a trunk!
Of course, I'm not going to do any of this, so I guess this is just punching my automotive clown. Hey, everybody does it.
that's why I like my 300hp/250ftlb EF car
This article is from the latest Sport Compact Car Magazine. The car in question is Hasport's K20 turbo EK Civic.
There's a 455-hp Civic on our cover. Let's take it for a drive.
Step 1: Drive to the gas station. Four hundred fifty-five hp uses a lot of gas.
Step 1.1: Oops, pump gas won't work. Detour to the local sandrail shop for a tankful of C16 leaded race juice instead.
Step 1.2: Not so fast. Pumping C16 into a street car is illegal. Even if they would look the other way, the large-diameter leaded pump nozzle won't fit in a Civic's skinny filler neck.
Step 1.3: Drive to the auto parts store for a gas can--slowly, so you don't run out of gas. Naturally, all they have is a 2.5-gallon can.
Step 1.4: Fill the can. Fill the car. Fill the can. Fill the car. Fill the can. Fill the car. Fill the can...oops, car is full. Put the full can of gas in the hatch and drive carefully.
Step 1.5: Pay $85 for 10 gallons of gas.
Step 2: Prowl the stoplights for a victim. An STi would be funny. Or maybe a Z06. Better yet, a Viper. Power-to-weight, remember? Fate inevitably lines you up with a cheerleader in a Cavalier. Oh, well, gotta warm up on something.
The light goes green. Polly prissy pants finishes dialing her phone, looks up and tries to remember which pedal makes it go.
Gas, clutch, finesse. The Civic is so light that even off boost, the front tires scramble for traction and you pull even with her driver's door before the turbo finally comes alive. Wham! The engine is bouncing off the rev limiter in a blink. Grab second and...wait. There's hissing. The turbo is doing something. Wait for it...wham, rev limiter! Damn, she's pulling away! Grab third. Nail it, hiss...whoa, actual acceleration. The engine strains, the tires pound over every crack in the pavement, ready to snap an axle with all the strain. The steering wheel yanks left, then right--don't run into rear bumper as you pull even again! Wham! The tires break loose again and the rev limiter hits. Grab fourth, hiss, wait...oops, red light.
The cheerleader gets there first.
Skid to a stop next to her, engine idling with tense impatience, rear hatch rattling in sympathy, a faint whiff of smoke wafting around the edges of the hood. Your victim-to-be looks over quizzically, faintly wondering what all the noise and smoke is for, then rolls up her window so she can hear her boyfriend on the phone.
Step 3: Drive home and think about balance.
A 455-hp Civic is a dick-swinging achievement of engineering, and a fully justified excercise if you have a business plan, but before you start building your own, consider the consequences. Even though you can switch to low-boost mode and run pump gas, the quest for a big number introduces compromises that ruin the drive. The injectors and turbo still have to be sized for your dyno conquests. That means a rich idle--since the huge injectors can't meter out small doses of fuel accurately enough--and the lag of a monster turbo. The occasionaltankfuls of leaded gas poison your expensive wideband o2 sensor and cat (if you have one), not to mention the air. And then there's the fact that after one 455-hp dyno pull and one 117-mph quarter-mile pass, this particular Civic barfed it's guts all over the ground. Oh, sure, with more prep time and a lot more money you could make it live longer, but you can't make more than 225 hp per liter truly reliable.
So why do you really want a 455-hp Civic? Are you just trying to be an Internet hero? Photoshop and an active imagination work just as well. Wanna be on the cover of Sport Compact Car? Too late, we just did the 455-hp Civic thing. Fact is, unless it's a purpose-built racecar, a 455-hp Civic is just automotive self-service.
Nobody will worship you if you build a 250-hp Civic, but your car will actually be much better. Little things like boost response, part-throttle driveability and traction are useless for Internet one-upmanship, but they're everything behind the wheel. This is why my own Silvia makes a lowly 280-ish hp at the wheels while any self-respecting 'Net maven makes twice as much. I don't want to be your hero, I just want to enjoy my car.
Start thinking this way and you start coming up with some very different plans. I was recently daydreaming about a real-world MR2 Spyder. Our long lost project car managed to pull more than 1.0 g with perfect balance and a comfortable ride. It was only lacking power. This is where most project daydreams would go wrong. You dream up a turbo, but then the rods go shooting out the side of the block, so you dream up a built bottom end. You have to dream up an intercooler, but with no airflow back there, it has to be air-to-water. That means a pump, a reservoir full of water, and a big cooler in front of the radiator. Oops, now cooling is compromised.
Suddenly you've dreamt up 300 hp, but now that perfectly balanced car is a terror to drive. Touch the throttle and you're backwards in a ditch. Now you need big rear tires, but that means a widebody kit. Looks like you're in for paint and bodywork, too. In the end, you might was well park it on some mirrors and pillow stuffing; you just built yourself a show car.
Here's what happens when you aren't trying to impress anybody: First you realize the car is really good as is, so you shouldn't change much. An extra 50 to 70 hp would be plenty to make it fast. Remember, this thing only weighs 2,200 pounds. Then you start thinking supercharger. You'd get linear throttle response and TRD already makes one.
But wait. Why are we willing to accept a 6-psi supercharger with no intercooler, but not a non-intercooled, 6-psi turbo? At the same boost level, a properly sized turbo is more efficient, so it should work better without an intercooler. Even better, a non-intercooled turbo could be bolted on without removing the engine, which you have to do to bolt anything on the intake side of an MR2 engine.
We tested a 6-psi, non-intercooled G20 built by Jim Wolf many years ago and boost response was so quick, you honestly couldn't tell it was turbocharged. It just felt big and powerful. All the hardware you need is a manifold, a turbo and a pipe. You don't even need a blow-off valve at 6 psi. This is cheap!
That G20 only made 170 hp, but it made lots of torque all the time. Flexible, responsive power would be perfect for the MR2's nimble chassis, but it would probably roast the inside tire on any corner. Order up a nice, smooth, helical limited slip and call it a day. Your car is done. No widebodies, thanks.
Now the clencher: A turbo is a pretty effective muffler, so you could just run the downpipe into a catalytic converter, than a short resonator, and out the back. Eliminating that big, stock muffler opens up a big hole in the back of the car. Maybe, with a little clever fiberglass work, you could add a trunk!
Of course, I'm not going to do any of this, so I guess this is just punching my automotive clown. Hey, everybody does it.
that's why I like my 300hp/250ftlb EF car
06-01-2004, 06:22 AM
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Re: the naked truth about big time horsepower... (mildly interesting)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mildly interesting »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I don't want to be your hero, I just want to enjoy my car.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thats exactly how I feel
I enjoy seeing all these 500+ hp hondas on the board lately, but I know thats not for me. We all want to go faster, but sometimes some poeple put thier pride before priorities.
This kind of reminds me of that thread Art made I think last year, about "Why does everyone want 600hp"
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thats exactly how I feel
I enjoy seeing all these 500+ hp hondas on the board lately, but I know thats not for me. We all want to go faster, but sometimes some poeple put thier pride before priorities. This kind of reminds me of that thread Art made I think last year, about "Why does everyone want 600hp"
06-01-2004, 06:27 AM
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Re: the naked truth about big time horsepower... (mildly interesting)
That article explains exactly what I am doing with my GSR. Everyone keeps telling I am going to want more power and Im going to want to crank up the boost. But this is my daily driver, the car im still paying for (loan) and all in all its the car I don't want parked in the garage at all during its driving period (summer and fall, then hybernation for 6 months). My stock block boosting 6psi (I purchased a .5 bar spring with my wastegate, but for some reason my boost gauge is reading a dead 6 psi, so something is up.) in a b18c1 is plenty of power for the street and in my 2,400lb car it pulls very hard. I can eat most anything in my area and anything that takes me....props to him. I can deal.
Ill be getting some eagle rods, arp headstuds and cp pistons (9:8:1) this winter and installing those. Ill potentially sell my exhaust and cat too and get a 3" exhaust too, right now mine is 2.67". Ill maybe up the boost to around 8-10psi but it won't go higher. I need reliability and power that I can put to the ground. I don't understand 300+whp, but thats probably because I don't have the wallet that most of you guys do when it comes to making serious power and being able to handle down time. 250-300whp is a very fast fwd street car in my book
Ill be getting some eagle rods, arp headstuds and cp pistons (9:8:1) this winter and installing those. Ill potentially sell my exhaust and cat too and get a 3" exhaust too, right now mine is 2.67". Ill maybe up the boost to around 8-10psi but it won't go higher. I need reliability and power that I can put to the ground. I don't understand 300+whp, but thats probably because I don't have the wallet that most of you guys do when it comes to making serious power and being able to handle down time. 250-300whp is a very fast fwd street car in my book
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06-01-2004, 07:51 AM
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Re: the naked truth about big time horsepower... (Chillinit)
Good stuff
"Here's what happens when you aren't trying to impress anybody: First you realize the car is really good as is, so you shouldn't change much."
Soo true!
"Here's what happens when you aren't trying to impress anybody: First you realize the car is really good as is, so you shouldn't change much."
Soo true!
06-01-2004, 10:01 AM
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Re: the naked truth about big time horsepower... (mildly interesting)
Very nice...hahhahah.....very real......lol
I love the part where, "Your victim-to-be looks over quizzically, faintly wondering what all the noise and smoke is for, then rolls up her window so she can hear her boyfriend on the phone. " -------------> ROFL..haha....you just made yourself look like a dumbass......sooo true.....that moment of silence where you just want to hide behind a rock..haha..
take care all...
I love the part where, "Your victim-to-be looks over quizzically, faintly wondering what all the noise and smoke is for, then rolls up her window so she can hear her boyfriend on the phone. " -------------> ROFL..haha....you just made yourself look like a dumbass......sooo true.....that moment of silence where you just want to hide behind a rock..haha..
take care all...
06-01-2004, 10:03 AM
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Re: the naked truth about big time horsepower... (Boltz)
I think it's kind of a cheesy write up, the beginning about pump gas/race gas kind of got to me.
I mean, tons of people make 450whp on pump gas nowadays.
M
I mean, tons of people make 450whp on pump gas nowadays.
M
06-01-2004, 10:05 AM
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Re: the naked truth about big time horsepower... (Boltz)
hmm... thats an interesting read... some really good points...
on a side note, I read about that car in the mag, I was curious about the injector sizing...
the 550s are a tad small for that power level... seems fishy to me... but hey, what do I know?
on a side note, I read about that car in the mag, I was curious about the injector sizing...
the 550s are a tad small for that power level... seems fishy to me... but hey, what do I know?
06-01-2004, 10:15 AM
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Re: the naked truth about big time horsepower... (Boltz)
That story was a little dramatized, but I guess it made its point. I don't know what to say other then, "to each his own."
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">AWD is nice</TD></TR></TABLE> Why? So you can put down 360wtq like my buddies STI and trap 106 mph with a 1.6 second 60'. That would be gay, imo.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">AWD is nice</TD></TR></TABLE> Why? So you can put down 360wtq like my buddies STI and trap 106 mph with a 1.6 second 60'. That would be gay, imo.
06-01-2004, 10:25 AM
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Re: the naked truth about big time horsepower... (slim9300)
I loved that article. It summed up what I have been thinking for a long time I love hearing about the guys making 4,5,6,700 + hp but it isn't practical for most people, and I think it throws the rest of the car out of balance.
Myself, I would rather have ~250hp, a cage, nice set of brembos, good wheels and tires, and a badass suspension. Thats where I'd want my money going. And if you have the money to do all that AND have a shitload of hp, buy another car
I love hearing about the guys making 4,5,6,700 + hp but it isn't practical for most people, and I think it throws the rest of the car out of balance. Myself, I would rather have ~250hp, a cage, nice set of brembos, good wheels and tires, and a badass suspension. Thats where I'd want my money going. And if you have the money to do all that AND have a shitload of hp, buy another car
06-01-2004, 10:45 AM
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Re: the naked truth about big time horsepower... (hadboosttroy)
hummm, i guess that guy doesn't go to the track w/ his car... anyone else dream of lining up next to a heads/cam Z06 vette purging at the line in your little 455hp turbo civic on 24.5" slicks and then breaking him off at the finish line? .... or is that just me?
06-01-2004, 10:47 AM
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Re: the naked truth about big time horsepower... (hadboosttroy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A 455-hp Civic is a dick-swinging achievement of engineering</TD></TR></TABLE>
06-01-2004, 10:52 AM
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Re: the naked truth about big time horsepower... (mildly interesting)
For a street car, its a challenge to try to put down 300+whp in an EF/EG chassis without spinning and skittering your way all over the road. I've found this out the hard way.
For drag.. I could see using 500+ whp with 4-bolt weld's w/ 24-26" slicks... but jeez, it would be quite the challenge to drive home on 20-22psi on street tires
I read that article in SCC and had to nod and agree...
For drag.. I could see using 500+ whp with 4-bolt weld's w/ 24-26" slicks... but jeez, it would be quite the challenge to drive home on 20-22psi on street tires
I read that article in SCC and had to nod and agree...
06-01-2004, 11:20 AM
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Re: the naked truth about big time horsepower... (DIRep972)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DIRep972 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hummm, i guess that guy doesn't go to the track w/ his car... anyone else dream of lining up next to a heads/cam Z06 vette purging at the line in your little 455hp turbo civic on 24.5" slicks and then breaking him off at the finish line? .... or is that just me?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I dont think it's a matter of not wanting it, I think it's a matter of not being practical for 75% of the people in this forum. I dont know about you guys, but my pockets arent deep enough to support that kind of racing. I mean im sure I could, but I'd be wearing clothes from goodwill, and racing barefoot
Chris you know me, I'd love to have a really fast turbo honda, but with the income I make im better off with a 12 second car that I can enjoy day in and day out. Even with what I have, im finally realizing that there's more to life than just cars. I'm going to put alot of thinking into my decision but I think at the end of this year I'm probably going to sale my car, so that me and Alicia can buy a house.
I love this car to death, but all it does is make me spend more $$$ and now im trying to get out of debt. I guess staying in my Uncles $750,000 house this weekend, made me realize that Id rather have a nice house, than a nice car
Im going to have fun while it last, but I think at the end of the year im going to sale my car for bigger plans
Ps I'll be back though.........
I dont think it's a matter of not wanting it, I think it's a matter of not being practical for 75% of the people in this forum. I dont know about you guys, but my pockets arent deep enough to support that kind of racing. I mean im sure I could, but I'd be wearing clothes from goodwill, and racing barefoot
Chris you know me, I'd love to have a really fast turbo honda, but with the income I make im better off with a 12 second car that I can enjoy day in and day out. Even with what I have, im finally realizing that there's more to life than just cars. I'm going to put alot of thinking into my decision but I think at the end of this year I'm probably going to sale my car, so that me and Alicia can buy a house.
I love this car to death, but all it does is make me spend more $$$ and now im trying to get out of debt. I guess staying in my Uncles $750,000 house this weekend, made me realize that Id rather have a nice house, than a nice car
Im going to have fun while it last, but I think at the end of the year im going to sale my car for bigger plans
Ps I'll be back though.........
06-01-2004, 12:26 PM
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Re: the naked truth about big time horsepower... (J. Davis)
was an ok read.
i didnt realize you couldnt idle big injectors....
and all c16 is leaded????
id like to make that kind of power but i dont have the money, and id want rwd or awd(sorry)
i didnt realize you couldnt idle big injectors....
and all c16 is leaded????
id like to make that kind of power but i dont have the money, and id want rwd or awd(sorry)
06-01-2004, 12:29 PM
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Re: the naked truth about big time horsepower... (quikB18B)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by quikB18B »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I dont think it's a matter of not wanting it, I think it's a matter of not being practical for 75% of the people in this forum. I dont know about you guys, but my pockets arent deep enough to support that kind of racing. I mean im sure I could, but I'd be wearing clothes from goodwill, and racing barefoot
Chris you know me, I'd love to have a really fast turbo honda, but with the income I make im better off with a 12 second car that I can enjoy day in and day out. Even with what I have, im finally realizing that there's more to life than just cars. I'm going to put alot of thinking into my decision but I think at the end of this year I'm probably going to sale my car, so that me and Alicia can buy a house.
I love this car to death, but all it does is make me spend more $$$ and now im trying to get out of debt. I guess staying in my Uncles $750,000 house this weekend, made me realize that Id rather have a nice house, than a nice car
Im going to have fun while it last, but I think at the end of the year im going to sale my car for bigger plans
Ps I'll be back though.........</TD></TR></TABLE>
yeh, not sayin thats what everyone should want or have... but if you have a dream or a goal then go for it is all I am saying.. this article makes a 455hp honda sound useless.. which is bull **** if you know what your doin. What you got goin w/ ur car absolutely kicks ***.. its fast, nice, and reliable.. and hasn't killed u budget wise either. Thats what I tried to do w/ my first car, the new one however, is a completely different mind set.
I dont think it's a matter of not wanting it, I think it's a matter of not being practical for 75% of the people in this forum. I dont know about you guys, but my pockets arent deep enough to support that kind of racing. I mean im sure I could, but I'd be wearing clothes from goodwill, and racing barefoot
Chris you know me, I'd love to have a really fast turbo honda, but with the income I make im better off with a 12 second car that I can enjoy day in and day out. Even with what I have, im finally realizing that there's more to life than just cars. I'm going to put alot of thinking into my decision but I think at the end of this year I'm probably going to sale my car, so that me and Alicia can buy a house.
I love this car to death, but all it does is make me spend more $$$ and now im trying to get out of debt. I guess staying in my Uncles $750,000 house this weekend, made me realize that Id rather have a nice house, than a nice car
Im going to have fun while it last, but I think at the end of the year im going to sale my car for bigger plans
Ps I'll be back though.........</TD></TR></TABLE>
yeh, not sayin thats what everyone should want or have... but if you have a dream or a goal then go for it is all I am saying.. this article makes a 455hp honda sound useless.. which is bull **** if you know what your doin. What you got goin w/ ur car absolutely kicks ***.. its fast, nice, and reliable.. and hasn't killed u budget wise either. Thats what I tried to do w/ my first car, the new one however, is a completely different mind set.