tony1

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Schister66 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Not quite 600whp...unless my math is really that bad</TD></TR></TABLE>

Haha, yeah, i guess you missed the point. You're playing with fire over 300whp on stock sleeves, especially with forged pistons that you don't know if the clearances were setup right on.

Play with fire and eventually you're going to get burned....

tony1

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by N.Y.C.E. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">everyone always state conservative tune, only the egt's can state what conservative is not afr. this problem has occurred due excessive heat or coolant not doing its job on that cylinder. broken ringland from previous build will not weaken the sleeve enough to cause this. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I disagree, EGT's can be manipulated by both fuel and ignition, and they both work opposite each other. High EGT's that are a result of not enough timing will never hurt anything more than an exhaust valve. EGT's are worthless unless you have 1 on each cylinder to compare temps.

I do agree that "conservative tune" gets thrown around WAY more than it actually happens. Tuner tells you it's conservative to keep you happy, you think he's going to tell you it's on edge? 90% of the time the tuner doesn't know any difference anyways, saying it's "conservative" makes him seem that much better.

Not saying that is the case in this situation, just generally speaking.

HiProfile

I think its just the meaning of the word 'conservative' has mutated. It now means anything besides ball-to-the-wall-insanity. Before turbo hondas, it meant anything besides normal, slightly aggressive, and very aggressive.

My guess is that it was a mix of slight problems. Those pistons don't exactly look like 8:1's to me, and I'm guessing you used 93/94 octane. Its also happening on the hottest piston, so I'm thinking its a on-the-edge problem - the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

sp00led

Yea, 17psi is what I run on pump with benson sleeves. I wouldn't push stock sleeves that hard unless I was on race gas. I know people that made 400whp on stock block but that was with C16. I'm sure if they ran pump gas they would have pics just like on page1.

There were probably other issues but if you were on higher octane fuel you might not have cracked them as soon.

SPOOLINmatt

the highest i ran on pump on stock sleeves was 440, never had an issue. im about to build another motor for 400 so i can stop only going fast at the track and have a little street fun(not street racing)

tony1

I think "conservative tune" means it didn't blow up on the dyno.. lol

PrecisionH23a

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDogg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

stock sleeves arent always good for 300hp

the **** is STOCK that means its good for the 180 or whatever hp they have from the get go, nothing more!!!</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's what I always say... but the internet has led people to believe you can make 600whp with no problems on all OEM parts, lol.

PrecisionH23a

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I disagree, EGT's can be manipulated by both fuel and ignition, and they both work opposite each other. High EGT's that are a result of not enough timing will never hurt anything more than an exhaust valve. EGT's are worthless unless you have 1 on each cylinder to compare temps.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Bingo. I never go by EGT's. And placing them directly on the runner scares the **** out of me ever since I've seen one break off into my friends turbo a few years ago. http://www.sdsefi.com/techegt.htm

alpha

I ran 22lbs from a GT3076RLE through my stock sleeved block on 93 octane. Do I recommend it to others? Hell no. My 1999 B18b block had 36000 miles on it. Was in great condition. And yes. I tuned it "conservatively", haha

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think "conservative tune" means it didn't blow up on the dyno.. lol</TD></TR></TABLE>

Funny but true

JDogg

i generally reserve the egt to tell me when i need to stop on whatever gas im on... 90% of what i tune is on pump gas and when you start making too much power for the pump gas the egt's start going higher and higher...

atec

The "not so cool thing" is that the motor can blow if the fuelpump fails even if the vacum hose on the FPR cracks the engine can go lean on WOT.


I blew a b16 on stocksleeves at 350whp becouse the Fuelpump leaned the fuel.

I believe it is not the block alone that is the week spot.
it is everything around.
If you fail to wire the pump, fail to change it or if a surrounding par "fails" The engine can and will most likely blow.

Even if you fill bad gas it can blow, on stocksleeves you are on the edge..
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just did 470whp on a stocksleeved b18.(recently 421.7 couple of weeks ago) both on pumpgas.
the owner is seeing topspeed a lot of time due a crazy rightfoot (now wanted by the police)

so stocksleeves can also work wery well.

tony1

I read the plugs to tell me when to stop.

N.Y.C.E.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I disagree, EGT's can be manipulated by both fuel and ignition, and they both work opposite each other. High EGT's that are a result of not enough timing will never hurt anything more than an exhaust valve. EGT's are worthless unless you have 1 on each cylinder to compare temps.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

yes egt's can be manipulated, but high egts due to low timing can crack a sleeve or burn a piston. cylinder pressure can sky rocket especailly if cam timing is off. we only read egts through all cylinders.

did he check his injectors

PrecisionH23a

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I read the plugs to tell me when to stop.</TD></TR></TABLE>

OBX has plug strap gauges on ebay now.

tony1

How does high EGT's from not enough ignition timing crack a sleeve?

The high egt's are a result of combustion happening late and the heat not being used/absorbed by the engine. The exhaust valves and the turbo take the abuse, not the motor. it's no different than anti lag.

quicksilver1689

i think tony has pretty much nailed it on the head , i totally agree with his views and thoughts on the subject.

N.Y.C.E.

mike1114

iTrader: (1)

maybe bad injector?

My motor blew after a dyno session. I sent the injectors out to be flow tested cause they were the only thing i was unsure about. On the cylinder that cracked for me, the injector was flowing like 13-15% less........

N.Y.C.E.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How does high EGT's from not enough ignition timing crack a sleeve?

The high egt's are a result of combustion happening late and the heat not being used/absorbed by the engine. The exhaust valves and the turbo take the abuse, not the motor. it's no different than anti lag.</TD></TR></TABLE>

if your egt is high how high is the cylinder pressure

tony1

Maybe it makes more sense if you think about it this way.

We're not measuring cylinder temperature, we're measuring exhaust temperature. With timing where it needs to be, the exhaust temperature will be lower because the heat is being absorbed and used by the motor. With ignition timing retarded, combustion happens later in the engine cycle and the engine doesn't have as much time to asborb and use the heat, hence the higher exhaust gas temperatures.

Would you say cylinder pressure is very high when a car is on anti lag, running 20deg ATDC? Because EGT's are damn high at that point.

N.Y.C.E.

what you have stated was correct, your valves and turbo can take a beating. but before the valve burns it gets smokin hot causing preignition thus blowing a head gasket, overheat the engine( crack a stock sleeve) detonation and other engine problems. anti lag is not the same as running on a engine with the timing to low. i also read the plugs on cars with or without egts .
like i stated earlier cam timing plays a part in all this too!

tony1

If your valves are hot from timing being very retarded, then combustion has already happened, how can you have pre ignition?

I've yet to see engine damage caused by not enough timing. Not saying it's impossible, but saying i haven't seen it. I've seen cars run like crap with not enough timing, just never seen damage from it.

At the end of the day though, the timing needs to be right, not too high, and not too low.

N.Y.C.E.

you said it yourself, your exhaust valves and turbo take a crap. so what causes your exhaust valve to take a crap, thats where your preignition comes from.
you have not seen it because your experience in tuning (plug readings)tells you what to look for and what not to do.

tony1

Well, it's not the pre ignition that causes the exhaust valves to take a crap, it's all the heat that they're seeing that they're not supposed to see, the heat that should be going to the pistons, cylinder walls, head, etc. High egt's in a situation with not enough ignition timing are not necessarily a result of preignition or detonation, just a result of late combustion.

N.Y.C.E.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well, it's not the pre ignition that causes the exhaust valves to take a crap, it's all the heat that they're seeing that they're not supposed to see, the heat that should be going to the pistons, cylinder walls, head, etc. High egt's in a situation with not enough ignition timing are not necessarily a result of preignition or detonation, just a result of late combustion.</TD></TR></TABLE>
i never said from preignition,

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by N.Y.C.E. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what you have stated was correct, your valves and turbo can take a beating. but before the valve burns it gets smokin hot causing preignition thus blowing a head gasket, overheat the engine( crack a stock sleeve) detonation and other engine problems. </TD></TR></TABLE>

the high heat burning exhaust valve causes preignition