<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


That's what's got you going about this post?

I'm giggling madly about this bit:

Guy wants to put a smaller than stock piston into a slopped out, high mileage stock bore.

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I was thinking the same thing

To the OP. Just stop being cheap and let them do it. If they have a good rep then you wont find a better deal than $400 for all that work. If youre still wanting to be cheap then buy a dial bore indicator, inside/outside micrometer, and some feeler gauges and go to town. That shouldnt be more that $100 worth of tools. But whatever you do...please get a professional to hone it for you. You dont have too much room for error with those vitaras.

BTW-oh yea...and dont forget to get you a plastigauge...that thing will come in useful

 

[sarcasm] i just paid $60,000 for a hone job!!! [/sarcasm]

 

I started a post about a year ago like this when I thought I was being overcharged, turns out its just expensive.

I had a GSR block with LS Eagles and Arias pistons going in.

Block cleaned--$50
Machine Work--$200
Plugged oil squirters
bore/hone
internal assy---$250
decked block to ensure flat--$35
installed new valve guides/seals---$125
pressure checked head---$35
R/R cam rockers---$20

All ended up totaling $750 in work. It adds up fast!!!

Buying the tools to do it right would cost just as much then theirs time in your own labor.

 

$399 would have been a deal.

 

sorry.. 'SOME plastiguage strips'
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by D@nnY &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">your going to get "a plastigauge" ?? please just pay the man </TD></TR></TABLE>
im not an idiot, iev done it before

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HatchEh2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... maybe it seems so much to me only cuz i know exactly what needs to be done and IMO that it isnt too hard... ive been spoiled by the countless jeff evan build write-ups that it seems too much for the amount of work.

I remember when i first started doin side work, i charged a kid $100 bux to change a head gasket..finished in 3.5hrs.. later i find out i coulda charged 3 times as much and still be cheaper than most 'mom&pop' shops... the amount of work i did seemed little cuz i've done it sooo many times that its second nature and doesnt feel as much...
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means i understand its gonna cost alot and gives reasons why i felt it was overpriced for those of you who continued to flame afterwards

i wanna see where all these H-T members are at now that used to sit here and post a list of **** they got done to the block for under $200!! this is what gave me a ballpark of what to expect...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Guy wants to put a smaller than stock piston into a slopped out, high mileage stock bore. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Hence me saying id like to make sure the bore is still True. Just like most 'd-series turbo ninjas' i have more than one block available to me.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by project dc2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
polishing crank =- 120-140$
bore and hone 100-170$

theres most of your money right there.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That better be WITH bearings, cuz its only $50 to polish a crank here and $25 to in a side shop. A hone is $10 a cylinder (which i do myself, i put together countless Quad motors, its the same concept, help file down/set rings during break in) ...i dunno about a bore tho. ill have to ask. But i heard (3rd party) that its about $30-40 per cylinder, so i guess thats right.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92eg6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">where this shop at, im lookin for one myself</TD></TR></TABLE>
its in burlington city in burlington county Right off rt130 on high st. Its really not worth the drive if your all the way up there. its just a local parts shop that happens to have a machine shop run by one guy in the back. They're not a special performance shop or anything. They normally just get work from dealerships in the area. The guys probably gonna look at me like im crazy when i tell him i need the block notched..
My friend took his gsr head to get milled there and the guy insisted on JB welding a block gaurd in for him... w/o a bore/hone... w/ the block still in the car..
he called them the NEW HYPE that most honda guys are doin

I KNOW theres gotta be better shops up where you are.. ill call some ppl for ya

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HatchEh2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">im not an idiot, iev done it before </TD></TR></TABLE>

No comment.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HatchEh2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hence me saying id like to make sure the bore is still True. Just like most 'd-series turbo ninjas' i have more than one block available to me.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I fail to see what the bore being true has to do with putting incorrectly sized pistons into your engine?

Is the more than one block comment meant to imply that you are a baller, and can afford to drop hundreds of dollars to install std size Vitaras, hit it with a sledgehammer, or drive around at 15 psi untuned with no coolant in the radiator just to see how long it holds together? Then why in hell are you bitching about $400? Ask the guy if you can pay him double.

 

relax asshat.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turbotypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yeah,when i had my shop,i charged $750 to assemble a longblock,not including the machine work.the same guy will probably go back and raise hell when he blows it up too.</TD></TR></TABLE>

shops that are good at what they do charge high prices b/c most guys will come back and raise hell when THEY blow up their motor by being an idiot b/c its easier to blame it on the builder than accept the the fact that they were and idiot

 

I have a grand into my bottom end machine work alone without any parts. So i don't see how 400 is soo bad. If they're good, then that's how they shall be paid.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I fail to see what the bore being true has to do with putting incorrectly sized pistons into your engine?

Is the more than one block comment meant to imply that you are a baller, and can afford to drop hundreds of dollars to install std size Vitaras, hit it with a sledgehammer, or drive around at 15 psi untuned with no coolant in the radiator just to see how long it holds together? Then why in hell are you bitching about $400? Ask the guy if you can pay him double. </TD></TR></TABLE>

vitaras HAVE worked in other ppls set ups! yes there a SLIGHT bit smaller (74.8/9mm or so)...so OBVIOUSLY if the bore isnt true then i must use another block thats closer to spec! because OBVIOUSLY if they'r out of spec the slightest bit then the piston will fit even looser, probably killing your compression!
and no DOUCHE BAG, that comment isnt for that, it means 'like other dseries enthusists' im building this motor for the sake that its EXPENDABLE... A LEARNING EXPERIENCE... ROOM FOR TRIAL AND ERROR. get my drift!!! not that im a fance show off, cool, hippty-hop, neons in my grill, BALLER!
ANd i EXPLAINED y i felt the price was too much!! READ!!

no one got nasty with you, you came at me with your wise *** comments,i did nothing but explain myself before.
now please, be informative, or leave me thread, PLEASE!

 

Sounds like you need to choose between a dependable build, which is a real deal for only $400, or a learning experience.

Just remember that if it's a learning experience you're after, you may very well screw up your pistons, rods, sleeves, crank, or more if you do it wrong. And that could definitely end up costing more than $400.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HatchEh2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... well.. my pasion is leaning more towards tuning, building motors, and turbos.. so i think im changing my major from criminal justice to Thermal dynamics or something.. i mind as well buy the machinist micrometers and some plastigauges and get to puttin this d16 together myself so i can do it again when i go bseries.

i refuse to pay another $400 to put together a 'D' series budget build.. ill save that for my B.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think thats your best bet right there... build it yourself especially if you build motors all the time... and get some machinist tools if you plan to build another motor after this anyway...

tell you what though, you can easily spend $400 or more on machinist tools, the people who build motors all day probably spend easily more then that on just a mic set...

as for myself I picked up a 4pc micrometer set for about $120, dial bore gauge for $90, stretch gauge for rod bolts cost me $150, ring file was $30 or $50, ring compressor was like $10, and feeler gauges are less then $10... oh and a caliper I got for $30...

now I just used those tools to double check bensons work... I see single micrometers go for $200+ I'm guessing the kind benson uses... no idea what the difference is

 

i know of that shop,BCAP. I never had a problem with that dudes work, on my customer's cars, but I did find a shaving, in one of a head's ports. If you don't trust them, don't go there(.)
personally, I'd hand the guy some side cash, and ask him to take his time...
That's where I plan on getting my block tanked.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HatchEh2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... maybe it seems so much to me only cuz i know exactly what needs to be done and IMO that it isnt too hard... ive been spoiled by the countless jeff evan build write-ups that it seems too much for the amount of work.</TD></TR></TABLE>


Engine Assembly:

* Blue print and full shortblock assembly: 500.00
* Bore and hone: 100.00


**Evans Tuning only assembles Honda bottom ends with Honda bearings, oil pump, water pump, and timing belt. Evans Tuning will not do an engine assembly with a crank that has previously spun bearings, used engine components, or any damage at all to the block.


as everyone else said... that price was a deal.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HatchEh2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">vitaras HAVE worked in other ppls set ups! </TD></TR></TABLE>

I've seen all the local ones come apart, melts a hole through the side of the ring package.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HatchEh2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yes there a SLIGHT bit smaller (74.8/9mm or so)...so OBVIOUSLY if the bore isnt true then i must use another block thats closer to spec! because OBVIOUSLY if they'r out of spec the slightest bit then the piston will fit even looser, probably killing your compression!</TD></TR></TABLE>

Killing compression isn't the issue. Else, why the melted pistons, plural?


I've posted the problems with, and repercussions of using, std size Vitaras in every major thread about them on this and a few other forums. So, you haven't done your research. Or else you skimmed over what you didn't want to hear to read what you did - that they are cheap.

Now, A6 block, LS rods, .25mm o/s GX pistons, ACLs, decked, and poured with Devcon epoxy for a sum total of $780 for short block AND labor is a ******* deal. I run a *real* rod, I run a *real* OEM piston (not aftermarket crap) that fits a freshly machined bore. And it's still cheap.

 

You know what they say, you get what you pay for? You look for the best deal and find trouble in the end. If the shop knows what they are doing, they deserve to get paid for it, they are not just throwing out prices and chancing your work to be done right. My suggestion just pay the money and be happy with the work knowing it was done right.

 

you said you only really need the block notched and the rings end gapped? Those are the 2 easiest things out of that list of work to do. if you think you can assemble the motor and measure bearing clearences buy you dont know how to check the ring end gap or dremel a little bit of metal from the block (there are how to writeups on it) then maybe you shouldnt tackle the task of assembling a motor. then again its your parts, your time and your money.

 

wtf happened to the h-t where people were helpful, and not so damned qwik the bash people? Maybe the guy was off base, instead of calling him names, help enlighten him.

 

A lot of people were helpful, Mister Fusion.

The rest of us swear like the dirty rednecks we really are, and people confuse that with hostility.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CoreyR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you said you only really need the block notched and the rings end gapped? Those are the 2 easiest things out of that list of work to do. if you think you can assemble the motor and measure bearing clearences buy you dont know how to check the ring end gap or dremel a little bit of metal from the block (there are how to writeups on it) then maybe you shouldnt tackle the task of assembling a motor. then again its your parts, your time and your money.</TD></TR></TABLE>
well i have someone who will polish my crank for $50 and i can hone (just need new stones) so that leaves me with notching and gapping. its not i cant do it, its i dont have the tools.
Im glad you guys are all speaking out of experience with your prices and not just here say. I see now that its not worth the hassle and im gonna take it to the guy as soon as i get the money (clutch+flywheel is gonna have to wait..). im still going to invest in all the tools like Turbosi03 said. mainly to go over the machinists work and for me to be able to do it myself on other blocks that are in better shape and dont need as much work.

and J. Davis, i did read the one 14 or so page thread by fjt and i read it word for word. I did notice alot of ppls questions went unanswered... but then i found the thread with all the members posting their vitara set ups and it made me feel a bit better to see good numbers on them... NOW, i finally got everything and ready to assemble.. and POOF.. that thread is gone..
too late for me to turn back now...
what were the set ups of those you know locally that have melted them?? how much boost did they run and how long did it last.. this is my gonna be my daily i dont think my professors wanna hear i couldnt make it to class cuz i melted a piston
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A lot of people were helpful, Mister Fusion.

The rest of us swear like the dirty rednecks we really are, and people confuse that with hostility.</TD></TR></TABLE>
haha, no hard feelings bro. were all here to learn, no need in gettin all roudy

 

I had no problems with my vitara setup what so ever. 18 psi all day long on those pistons.

I think for this build all you should do is request the machine shop to clean the block up a bit, inspect the crank to make sure you can use standard bearing sizes. The plastigauge the bottom end and the ring gap on your own and do your own assembly.

I will just say my local shop charges me $100 to do the above, including boring the motor micropolishing the crank and checking bearing clearances.

So for your sake, since there isn't a crazy expensive involved in your build just try to do it yourself. The tools are not hard to find.. and the hard parts you can get done at the shop.. the assembly is usually what rapes you, atleast at my local shop.

 

<U>93turbo16</U> wow, i JUST finished reading a post you made in one of the vitara threads and i just sent you a pm about tunning. then i come to find you came right to my thread lol.

good to hear about your setup running strong
im gonna take into consideration what you said about doing the assembly myself and the other stuff at the shop. ill see if the guy will work out a deal with me.. the less money i spend on the block the quicker i can get the other things i need to get my sexy bitch back on the road

 

Rob's D16Z6 with GT28RS ate three of them over two different builds. Both times in the 9-12 psi range, tapped the revlimiter due to slipping clutch. Not big power situation, but the car has run 8.8 1/8th miles with 2.1 60' off the same tune.

One of the Greddy SOHC guys @ 10 psi - not pushing any power - did the same thing. I don't know the details.

I'm pretty unimpressed with piston/ringland hype. It's a slug of ******* metal, it sits there and gets pushed around by the rod and by the combustion reaction. However, if wall clearance is too much you set yourself up for hotspots from burning oil deposits that make their way past the rings. You run too lean, can't get the heat away from the hotspot, and *poof* bye bye piston. If we got actual OEM Suzuki pistons in .25mm o/s.... that, I think, would be a nice solution.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If we got actual OEM Suzuki pistons in .25mm o/s.... that, I think, would be a nice solution.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That would be a very nice solution. I think they only come in like .40mm over or something to that effect.

My car never made it to the track when it was fully healthy. I popped a headgasket this summer when I turned the boost up to 18 psi, and didn't know it. Replace the headgasket and everything was peachy.. but that was the day before I sold my car. SO in ever got to track it again.

On 17 psi the car ran a 8.4 in the 1/8th on some tiny slicks. Killed an STI with a crap load of upgrades he was stunned.