XDEep

so by now it should be clear that a standard a/f gauge is a very crude way of tuning with only 1/10th resolution, and should be immediately tuned properly on a dyno with a wideband o2 sensor.

now 400$ or 100-140$/hr for dynotuning is quite up there, esp. since i'd rather buy my own wb setup and tune, as best i can, myself. im not shooting for optimal hp, just street reliability. perhaps when i have everything finalized and want to squeeze every bit out ill reserve some time on the dyno.

it seems the most popular setup is using the ngk L1H1 sensor which comes stock on some hondas along with a controller like the techedge device. both can run upto 600$ or more. 600$ is nothing compared to a blown motor, but i still find it hard to fork out when my entire setup is costing less. so what else am i to do? well i stumbled upon this page which puts together some alternatives, some of which include the o2 sensor for around 300.

http://www.alltrac.net/tuning/afgauge.html

so what are your thoughts on

the greddy

Price ~$300
Includes primary o2 sensor
Tomei makes similar unit, but information unknown

k&n
Round Complete Kit w/ o2 sensor
85-2441
$233.99

halmeter

Good - Highly visible during driving, highest resolution 30 output LED, 1 or 2 lights at a time
Price ~$130
-no sensor included? uses stock?

SPLIT SECOND

Good - Compact unit makes installation very simple, 1 light at a time for easy night driving
Bad - Seems to be calibrated more for an even A/F ration (stoich) for non turbo cars
Price ~$100
-bad regular narrow gauge?

INTELLITRONIX/CYBERDYNE

Good - Very inexpensive, LEDs can be removed from case and placed in dash for stealth installation
Bad - Not much of a quality unit, readings sometimes vary between units, many lights displayed at one time
Price ~$39
-bad regular narrow gauge?

AUTO METER
Good - Relatively inexpensive, 20 LED readout for higher resolution
Bad - A nice unit, but the multiple lighting plus the circular motion can give you a headache at night
Price ~$59
-bad regular narrow gauge?

EFI SYSTEMS

Good - Integrated injection pulse monitor, good price for 2 in 1 unit
Bad - 2 displays in one may make for difficult reading at a glance
Price ~$99
-bad regular narrow gauge?

JUMPTRONIX

Good - Very accurate display voltage in .001 increments, large easy to read screen
Bad - You must have a preset knowledge of what the voltages mean.
Price ~$99
Displays actual voltage numbers
-.001 increments?

modded autometer for wot only - $99

-----------------------------------------------

WIDEBAND UNITS
--------------------
FJO Wide Band Measuring devices
analog and digital output, with a host of partner products that can aid in tuning:
FJO Wide Band Measuring Unit
FJO Digital Air/Fuel Ratio Display Box
FJO Wide Band o2 Sensor
~$700

TechEdge Wideband AFR Meters
http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/default.htm
Support for the Bosch LSU sensor (and possibly the NTK L1H1 or derivatives)
Greater accuracy through more precise sensor thermal regulation and sensing.
Integrated diagnostic capability.
Logging of RPM and multiple analogue channels with EGT (thermocouple) support.
On board logging memory.
AFR Compensation for exhaust back pressure (requires pressure sensor).
Optional packaging - smaller, more rugged, extruded case.
Optional integrated display (later offering).
~$650 USD (540AUS)

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-how can you retrieve .001 resolution if youre using a narrow-band sensor?

-how about using a modded a/f for wot, but how do you tune idle and part throttle?

-how do you start tuning yourself? where should you start? whats the danger level of idle/part/wot? 12.5:1 comes to mind. ive read about blown motors at 14:1 wot.

-any other diy alternatives?

as it stands im gonna be tuning obd0 with an smc and 450's.

EGJDM

Hey check out the air fuel ratio meter I just finished for my final project it have an LCD that display the voltage off the sensor very accurately. And best of all it was cost affective and I made it myself!!

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=480661

T3T495GSR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EGJDM &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hey check out the air fuel ratio meter I just finished for my final project it have an LCD that display the voltage off the sensor very accurately. And best of all it was cost affective and I made it myself!!

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=480661

</TD></TR></TABLE>


wow , thats purty neat there

hybridsol

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by XDEep &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
-how can you retrieve .001 resolution if youre using a narrow-band sensor?

-how about using a modded a/f for wot, but how do you tune idle and part throttle?

-how do you start tuning yourself? where should you start? whats the danger level of idle/part/wot? 12.5:1 comes to mind. ive read about blown motors at 14:1 wot.

-any other diy alternatives?

as it stands im gonna be tuning obd0 with an smc and 450's.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ok here's the deal...

Without a stand alone (Hondata, AEM, Electromotive) system, there's not much you can do to change the fuel curve... rising rate regulators or the AFC hack are your two cheap options that will actually work.

Once you have that worked out, using ANY 2 wire ot 4- wire o2 sensor is bull. They cannot accurately reproduce the difference in A/F at lean or rich conditions. That means you won't know if you are running at 13:1 or 12:1. Although that's really not necessary, depending on how much you boost, and if you care about, say, gas milage.

You can get any of the meters you list, they are all reading the same sensor voltage that varies between 0 and 1 VDC, with 0.5VDC being 14.7:1. Hell, I've used my Fluke multi-meter to check it.

What it all comes down to is... you just can't get the "dialed in" precision with a narrow band sensor, period. You can get by with a piggyback fuel management, if you can adjust it to the wide band (think of a dial with no indications).

Time and time again, people skimp on their engine management, or worse, don't spend $100 on a good hour of dyno time (full throttle only?) and end up blameing something else.

There is no, and I MEAN NO BETTER DOLLAR SPENT THAN DYNO TIME WITH A WIDEBAND, especially with a turbo car that wasn't meant to be turbo'd in the first place.

Sean

EGJDM

The saying is true you get what you pay for. But some of us really couldn't justify spending 800 on a wide band. Why don't you look at a DIY wb system?

XDEep

ya ive been looking at the diywb as well but my soldering skills suck. that one comes out to what like 370?

-whats the resolution on our stock sensors? is it just .1?

-do wb units control the heating portion?

spark

I have asked an electronic studiant too realize the wideband from http://www.diy-wb.com/info.htm.
I also want an external display with the AFR not the voltage. I'm planing to use a 5 wires sensor.
Is this setup the more accurate for the less money i can have ?

714phil

have you guys seen this one before? Its the Uego 1000

int3gra

UEGO site, prices?

jinxproof99

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by STD ONEpointSIX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">have you guys seen this one before? Its the Uego 1000

</TD></TR></TABLE>

yea, thats a nice unit. there more pics of that here: http://forums.nasioc.com/forum...eband and more discussion of other products...........

88ZCRX

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by int3gra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">UEGO site, prices?</TD></TR></TABLE>

http://www.extrememotorsports.com. Their price is $550 I believe.

spark

550 is too much, and it's 4 wires... i tought that more wire where the most accuracy...

714phil

it actually has 5 wires

ekb18c

Most of the meters above are compatibile with narrow band sensors which will not give you a accurate reading. Dont' waste your money on narrow band sensors. Halometer is good but you need to purchase the wide band o2 sensor which isn't included for $130 bucks. If you are going to get a wideband o2 sensor and meter, I suggest getting the Motec PLM with the NTK sensor. The NTK sensor will last longer than the bosch sensor, besides the bosch sensor will be kaputttyy if you run it too long on race gas.

((*Warning*) Motec PLM with NTK sensor will break walllets)

With the money spent on a wide band o2 and the display device such as the motec plm or techedge you could have gotten your car tuned 2 or 3 times. And even if you spend the money on the wideband o2 and etc.. if you don't really know how to tune you may not get the power that you want. Let's not forget other misc. parts such as laptop. Laptops tend to be a lot of money these days, especially a good one. Workign with a old, slow, laptop is extremely frustrating.

There are so many factors that one must deal with when tuning a car. You have to know sort of where the motor wants to travel on the map. How does this particualr motor wants to curve on the map and then predict what fuel values and timing parameters would make good power without pushing it much. As well as the timing of the motor, fuel pressure ..etc....

I'm not here to stop people from doing it themselves, I'm hear to give a heads up. For those that want to do and learn themselves, do it! However, keep in mind that it may take you awhile to get it right and it might take awhile to get the power that you want , as well as the driveability (sp?). Many people would get so frustrated just trying to get a car started without a base map. Also keep in mind that you should always prepare for the worst, so do you have enough money to rebuild your motor if by accident, you blow it up?

ion_four

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by spark &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">550 is too much, and it's 4 wires... i tought that more wire where the most accuracy...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Not really...1 wire sucks, 2-4 wires are basically the same, but 4 wire gets up to operating temp faster. 5 wire is a whole different kettle of fish, being it's a nernst pump whatchahoozit.

ALL A/F meters are a waste of packaging if they don't use a wideband/5wire/UEGO(Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen) sensor...with a normal o2 the gauge is not the least accurate part, it's the sensor. I have to give props to the jumptronix, though, since they managed to sell a $5 voltmeter for $99 Just use a multimeter on your stock sensor and save money if you don't buy a wideband.

spark

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ion_four &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just use a multimeter on your stock sensor and save money if you don't buy a wideband.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree with that : this is why I'm looking for the cheapest and precise wideband in the world ! LOL LOL LOL

XDEep

ya since i installed the 450s thats what ive been using. until we can actually use the bosch or ntk units become available again, im just going with the stock o2, egt, joseph davis' 1.0retard bin (ghettodyne), and either get a digital readout a/f or make the diy gauge out of the components i got.

any idea how the techedge digital displays compare to a multimeter's? speed, accuracy.. or first how fast is the ntk/bosch, i think i read the stock sensors do like 3 per/sec.

civictypenos

if your looking to spend $300,why not just do the techedge?i paid $153 for the both the unit and the display,shipped to my house,it was the DIY kit.paid $100 for a used sensor,paid $85 for complete palm pilot setup.with materials and all i have around $375 into it and it has logging with rpm's.with out logging how are you going to be able to accuratly change things.i say go with the techedge,it only took me a week to get my kit here in florida,about 12 hours to put it together(im a novice with this tuff).about $30 in supplies from radio shack.plus it was fun actaully see it work after i made it,lol.