this whole "secret" **** is bothering me. this is a place to exhange technical ideas, not whisper.

 

 

He has explained the setup...just in Tech

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=390219

 

A good p&p will help.. Along with some bigger valves. That will let more air in and out and more effiecently then stock ones.

Good Luck

(Turbos Rule!)

Blaze

 

Cooling the air before it is compressed is almost worthless. You can get about the same delta T post-compressor by improving the efficiency of the blower by porting, and not have to worry about adding dry ice to a box, and having that extra expense just to go WOT.

It would be much much easier to get a sizable delta T by creating an intercooler after the compressor, as you are dealing with ~200*F temps as opposed to 60-80*F temps.

 

It's against the law for me to say this but.......I wish I had kept my JRSC instead of going turbo

dustin will ban me now

Seriously, it was perfect for what I needed; a nice boost in power, easy to install and not the biggest bitch in the world to tune.

I still prefer my rex to the SC GSR though.

edit: I totally forgot to speak to the post. IMO if you want big power then it is truly in your best interest to go turbo. But...I suggest that you think long and hard about how much power you really want, and what you want to do with your car.


[Modified by Strng1dah, 10:03 PM 1/21/2003]

 

words of wisdom.

 

Can someone walk me through why it is pointless to cool the air *before* the compression. I understand the theory but have never heard any really good arguments, just a bunch of "No, that doesn't work."

I understand how compression always causes increase in temperature so you don't have to go through that part of it. My question is: If you compress x amount of air into y amount of air, will the end temperature be the same every time? Even with different intake temps? (Now I do realize that with different intake temps comes slightly different densities, but you get the idea) I hope someone can give me a good explanation and not just a bunch of "Don't you know anything about thermodynamics?" because I don't.

 

In order for an intercooler to work properly it has to have the air presurized against the outer walls so it will transfer the excess energy to the heat exchanger it-self. If it isn't pressurized against the walls the air will just flow through it without really exchanging any of the energy.
Also you can only cool something if it is at a much higher temperature than the surrounding air with any kind of efficiency. Unless you use some sort of coolant, but it still would have only minimal effects on the entire situation. I hope that is a good way of putting it in English terms. There's more to it, but that gives you the generalized idea.

 

this is very misleading.

"pressurized" air will have a higher temperature than ambient air because as pressure goes up or volume goes down, temperature goes up proportionally. the concept that the air has to be " pressurized against the walls " is absurd. the fact that the air is hotter is the only reason the intercooler exchanges the heat to the ambient air flowing through it.

yes, pressurized air is more dense so there are more molecules against the walls of the intercooler, but if you had hot air at 0psi flowing through the intercooler, it would cool it just as well, cause even though there are less molecules per aquare inch of intercooler wall, there are less molecules in the IC to be cooled. a properly designed intercooler will effeciently cool air over a wide range of pressures including 0psi or even partial vacuum (but this wouldnt be useful on our cars...just making the point)

 

Anybody?

 

You can cool the air all you want before the charger but to get the best results you have to consider that the JRSC blows hot air to the engine. This is the problem. A turbo works on the exhaust side of the engine and this airflow can be cooled.

 

It's not the pressure that drives the energy (heat) transfer, it's the temperature differential. A larger difference will cause a higher flow of heat from the hot air to the cooling medium. You could have 1000 psi flowing through a giant intercooler but if it's at the same temperature as the cooling air, you won't get any temperature reduction.

 

so that means that the air going INTO the engine must be cool in order to have ANY positive effect? Right? Not just cold air going into the IM?

 

when you say it must be "cool" i assume that you mean it has to be cooled below the ambient temp. if thats what you mean, then you are correct. in other words, if its 80 deg outside and you have a JRSC in its stock form, lets say the motor sees 150 deg air once its compressed. if you found a way to cool the intake air BELOW ambient temp (80 deg), say mabye 10 deg below, then theoretically the motor will see 140 deg air. however, as someone else mentioned above, its usually inefficient to cool anything below ambient temp. think of how A/C works - it takes a lot of power to turn that compressor to cool the cabin of the car below ambient temp. compare that with an intercooler on a turbo, however, and you'll see that its very efficient because its trying to cool air that is warmer than ambient and bring it back down to ambient - a simple task that an intercooler can take care of. i hope this makes a little more sense.

 

I makes a lo of sense keebler. Thanks for putting it into words.

I guess the only thing we've really settled here is that cooling the air after the blower is the best way to drop intake temps. With that said, what about doing some sort of a heat exchanger inside the manifold?
Maybe a coil of some sort, flowing chilled water before the intake runners?

Technically that should work the best.

But what about disposing of some of the ineffeciencies in the design itself?
For instance, sanding the top of your pistons will keep get rid of the machining ridges, as not to create hotspots. If the same thing is done to the intake manifold, and "S" tube (which are poor casts), what kind of differences in temp might someone see?

Especially since this is something that a person could do in there garage on a weekend.

 

i guess personally i'm not so convinced that smothening these edges would reduce heat. if it did anything, it would probably only help the flow. my reasoning for this is that its only air flow happening here - not combustion. i think its combustion that causes the hot spots you refer to in the combustion chamber itself. like i say, i dont have any proof of this but it only seems logical to me.

as far as cooling after the charger, it has been done several ways in the past. the problem is there arent a lot of numbers to prove how well it works. if you havent checked out hostboard (www.hostboard.com - search for the "force induction integra" forum) and clubsi, i encourage you to do so because the people that have accomplished the above have posted pics of their setups in these forums. in other words, we can learn from their findings/mistakes.

 

Supposing that you had a cooling medium that was below ambient temperature, cooling the charge before the compressor will see overall temps reduced, but it won't be as effective as having the charge cooled after being heated. In the case of using ambient air as the cooling medium, as on most air-air intercoolers, you would not get much, if any, cooling effect.

There seems to be only a very short distance from the intake manifold to the engine itself, but a little heating will still occur; anyway, to answer the question, yes, you would ideally want the air as it enters the engine proper to be cooled, as there are many places upstream where heat can creep back into the intake charge. However, actually keeping the air post intercooler and post intake manifold at a constant temperature is one of those things that is easy to say, but much harder to do...

 

And unlike a turbo it's important that the aftercooler system drop pressure as little as possible since you can't simply increase boost, and the JRSC becomes far less efficient near 13psi.

 

CRVRX has a very similar setup I believe with his intercooled JRSC...some sort of chilled coil in the manifold? Dont take my word for it...maybe he'll chime in and explain, as thats what I took from what I remember from his previous posts.

And we're not worried about a pressure loss I'll take 8-9PSI intercooled w/ a stepper pulley over a 10PSI non-IC'd stepper pulley setup anyday!

 

Thanks for the plug!

I have infact been working on several intercoolers for the JRSC over the years, I have had good luck with the last few I made. After spending countless hours and money on these projects and learning along the way ,my new design so far has been very good.
To simplfy it , we take the manifold and cut the top off and the sides, we have 2 interooler cores which weld in the manifold. We then have a new top and sides built which gives more room for air flow and the intercoolers them self. We raise the top of the manifold about 2" at the tallest point then it tapers back to the runners.
I havn't promoted the intercooler untill I was 100% happy with it I know it will work to my satisfaction, I do have pics but I have no clue how to post them.

I don't want to sell something I havn't got ,or say that the intercooler design blows snow inside the manifold, but so far here's some results I have with air temperatures: WOT runs in 4th gear
Blower spinning 19,200 rpm = 14psi on a 1.8L , 9 psi on a 2.0L ( the limmit)
Before cooler at intake port = 245 deg F
Before cooler at factory air sensor = 250 deg F

Ambiant temperature = 65 deg F ( You gotto love Florida)
Water temp in heat exchanger = 70 deg F
" With intercooler" at factory sensor = 170 deg F ( Peak)
" With intercooler" at intake port = 135 deg F (peak)

I will dyno soon as I can, I have had to add 7% fuel so far to stop detination, I have more testing to do but so far I am very happy happy with . All temperature reading are done with Auto meter air temp gauge.
Hope this gives some hope to Supercharger fans !




[Modified by CRVRX, 1:43 PM 1/24/2003]

 

CRVRX--

that sounds very encouraging! thanks for sharing that with us. i would love to see the pics. if you dont wanna mess with posting them, email them to warez@mn.rr.com and i'll post them for you. i would love to see them as i cant imagine what you're saying 100% correct (i'm a visual person). those are some really nice numbers you have there. one quick question/verification: the reason you had to add more fuel was becuase the air was colder(denser), right?

thanks
kevin

 

 

This is DEFINTIELY something that is interesting. I would be more than happy to host the pictures up for you if I can see what the hell this is and what the setup looks like. How much tuning are you going to be doing before you release something like this to the general public?

 

I think CRVRX may have found something that we have been wanting for a long time. Thanks for your willingness to dyno the setup too. Not to take anyhting away from anyone else who's done a jrsc chiller, but come on. Do you really expect us to spend thousands on something you SAY will work?

I really look forward to your results CRVRX.
and a to you!

edit: 731 view so far. I think we you may have a market for this thing


[Modified by hypa, 7:07 PM 1/24/2003]