Austin

I've noticed that quite a few of you are not using a J&S Safeguard and I was curious as to why....

I currently own a J&S Safeguad and love the thing...it's saved me on more than one occassion when I was playing with my timing curves, and it is still saving me from odd ball situations...like last week when it was 110 degrees out and I was pushing the car just a little to much, look down and sure enough the J&S is taking a couple of degrees out...still no knocking though

I understand that it may not be a cheap item, but I believe it to be a worthy investment when you start to seriously modify your car.

Just curious and on a fact finding mission as to why more people don't use these ingenious items...

Austin

btw - they have a new website address that's much easier to remember http://www.jandssafeguard.com

Sonny

Hey Austin:

A lot people take the approach that a properly tuned engine should not detonate. That is true, but a tool like the J&S will allow you a big safety net when you are trying to get the car into that state of 'magical tune', especially if you are DIY tuner.

Some people just play with ignition timing and fuel and then if they hear detonation, they roll the timing back and/or add fuel. The problem is that a lot of cars with aftermarket intakes and exhausts are so loud that it is really hard to hear detonation at WOT with a 3" exhaust.

Since going forced induction, I have always had a J&S and I'll always have one. The piece of mind it offers is priceless. I beat the living the crap out my JRSC'd B16A2 for 10k miles with the JRSC and when I went to sell the car, it still had 210 psi on every cylinder.

It may have been that way without the J&S...who knows. All I know is that the J&S allowed me to comfortably push the envelope without constantly worrying. I was still making payments on that car and when something is that new and it's your daily driver, believe me, you worry!

Sonny

SIK IN DA HED

i remember when J&S used to be an item that was popular in this forum. now i barely hear about it. it is a good thing to have..

how much do they run these days?

Austin

http://www.Importparts.com has the version 2 on http://www.groupbuycenter.com for $475.00(www.groupbuycenter.com/buy.asp?row_id=5795

Austin


[Modified by Austin, 11:35 AM 6/13/2002]

b18bturbo

but it costs half as much as standalone i guess since hondata and aem prices come down more people swicthed away.

Sonny

I picked up my used J&S Classic for $250 w/dual monitor. It's a bitchin' setup. I love it.





That's the Ultra Safeguard in the glovebox. I sold it and got a Classic and mounted it in the same spot. I still have the Safeguard and Hondata, but the car is gone.

Sonny

stevecockrill

Sonny (and everyone)....

How does the J&S wire in if you are using (for example, in my case).....a B16A2, with ITR wiring harness connecting to regular del Sol chassis harness into a P28 (original ECU, now Hondata stage 2, rechipped to run the DOHC).....I don't have the knock sensor connected since the P28 doesn't look for it, but presumably the B16A2 and ITR engine harness have the sensor and wires......where does the J&S determine detonation?? Through the stock knock sensor?

TIA!

Steve

b18bturbo

you can wire it up with either a stock knock sensor or a gm snesor that is provided with the kit.

stevecockrill

Great! Thanks b18bturbo!

Steve

CKDC2

BHSCGSR has one in his JRSC GSR running mid 12's. I helped with the install and tuning and swear by it. Took about 10-15 passes to get the retard and sensitivity where we wanted it...Worth it's weight in gold, imho.

Austin

When using Hondata most people typically opt for the P28 ecu that doesn't have a knock sensor input, and from what I hear the ecu ignores the knock sensor after 4-5000 rpm...so it should still be a viable option.

AEM claims "dual knock sensor control"...but how exact is the control? I know that the J&S can individually retart cylinders up to 10+ degrees. I don't have any experience with this engine management, so I cannot tell you how this works, although I know that AEM has made a few attempts to purchase J&S outright.

I know that GM Motorsports have been using them on their American Le Mans cars, Adam Sawaratari used it on his RX-7, and Abel Ibarra was using it...a standalone in not necessarily the end-all, which is why I'm using my Hondata with a J&S.

Stock@$$GSR

Ok guys, sorry to post this, but I'm lost here. I went to their website to read up on the safeguard, but I still don't know exactly what it does and if I need it. I plan on getting a Hondata and pushing anywhere from 13-16 psi (or whatever psi is safe to run on 91 Octane gas). Thanks for any info

Rboosted717

iTrader: (1)

People who feel a stand alone is gods gift to the world when tuned and feel that their engine is bullet proof deserves to have their engine blown up.
Yeah a stand alone is a good tool however people like Hondata, AEM, etc... think about money, profit, and production time when making their kits. The accuracy and the response that they offer are not up to par IMO.
The J&S is a great unit. If I didn't have it I would have blown my engine probably like 500+ times by now. With the J&S on my car I can tune the car to its very limits even past its limits and never have to worry about the engine blowing up from pinging. See the J&S is so sensitive that even on the almost lowest setting it would pick up pinging. When on the track, drags, tip-in, etc... the J&S lit up and pulled the timing out when needed.
At first when I got it I was like $400 or so is a ton of money, however after tuning the car and being around the professional race scene for so long I realize just how much this unit does for me.
Hondata units, AEM, etc... are nice units, however a separate unit like the J&S keeping an eye on pinging, etc... is no match to any unit on the market.
Anyway to each their own on how they feel about the J&S and money, however people must realize that import racing is not cheep. Also buying units that are all in one or all built in might not do as well or designed as well as a unit that works for one purpose only. With a devices that focuses on pinging, detonation, etc... you better not go cheep. Go cheep on a turbo timer, a monster tach or something, don't go cheep on a unit that will protect your engine. And no, not even the best tuning in the world will prevent your engine from pinging, etc...

Stock@$$GSR

So will your engine never detonate as long as you have a J&S because it will always pull the timing whenever it senses detonation will occur?

Also, what do you mean that you can tune the car past its limits? Do you mean you're able to tune the car leaner that usual like to 13:1 instead of 12.5:1 or 12.0:1 and not have to worry about detonation?

Rboosted717

iTrader: (1)

no the engine will still detionate. However when the J&S hears it, it pulls timing out immeditally so that it won't continue which allows me to keep at WOT.
When I meant by tuning past its limits is that I'm able to tune it to a point where it will ping some however the J&S will pull timing out if the pinging is too much.

Or a better way of saying it:
From J&S site:
"We use the device for a multitude of reasons. First we can be quite agressive with any tune-up, regardless of engine type. There are never any two cylinders in any engine that actually "want" the same timing for optimum performance. With the SafeGuard, we can bump timing a couple degrees past what's optimum for the "average" cylinder and then allow each cylinder to "seek" it's individual timing requirement. So power production is as large a factor for using the unit as the protection aspect. The fact that you can optimise every cylinder and keep all on the "edge" with the insurance that the engine's not going to be damaged, should there be a glitch in any of the many vital support systems, provides peace of mind and it also allows us to move all development programs much faster pace than we could without the device. Once we've assembled a particular package, we'll adjust the timing curve so that the J&S is just "flikering" one light. Occasionally in areas where the timing curve might be too hot, we might see two or three lights flicker, but they will all go out, when the timing curve falls back inline. My personal feelings are that using a J&S with it's dual monitor (or any A/F ratio meter) combined with a fuel pressure gauge inables me to find the "tune-up" that the engine wants within just a couple tests. When you're bumping too many lights, either pull some timing, add some fuel, or both. The fact that you can run to limits without smoking the engine permits one to achieve results fast and that's really something that helps out around here. As I've stated previously, using the equipment mentioned above, you can appear to be a tuning "genius" to others and even yourself. NASCAR has made the J&S illegal, because we could tune and achieve almost 50 more horsepower with them. Having the ability to run a "qualifying tune-up" for 500 to 600 miles sure gives an advantage in the races and, although it might not be visable, having that additional juice to make a pass when nobody else can can sure help avoid accidents and it can also win races. I wish they'd let everyone use them. Engine expenses would be cut in half."


[Modified by Rboosted717, 3:07 PM 6/13/2002]

Austin

Currently mine is tuned to have 1-2(1-2 degrees) lights lit under extreme WOT situations, whereas normally I would have to reduce the distributor timing by 2 degrees to stop the detonation from happening.

SiRkid

dustins avatar says it best!

GruvyTune

Sonny,
how hard is it to use the J&S along with the Hondata?
I am seriously considering one.

dustin

Does the safeguard think VTEC engaging is knock?

My EMS picks up knock when the solenoid clicks....

Xerxes

Gruvy i have the J&S and a hondata running on a p28, and they basically run independently of each other! Mine is a classic that i picked up for $250 used... Especially with the p28 that has no knock sensor control, the j&s does it's own thing and hondata does it's own thing and they never interfere with each other.

austin said that he runs his car to the limit, allowing 1-2 degrees of automatic retard, BUT he is N/A and it's not generally a good idea to be running at the bleeding edge for us high-boost guys. I have my J&S set around 9-10 o'clock on the dial, and I try to tune my car such that it NEVER goes off. That way, if it DOES go off, then i know that something has changed (i.e. hot summer temperatures) and i should be careful etc.

I use zip's audible alert (easily found with a google search for "j&s safeguard audible") and it's a lifesaver IMO. I hear a loud beep from the audible alert and then know to look at my display and see how much it is retarding.


I highly recommend this unit, especially if you have a standalone and can find a used classic one for under $300; $500 for the ultra is a bit pricey when you aren't even using half the functionality.


-Xerxes

GruvyTune

that would suck if that were the case.

GruvyTune

isn't the ultra a bit more sophisticated? What wouldn't I be using on it besides the MAP limiter?

Does the classic control individual cylinders?

Xerxes

the classic can retard individual cylinders, i have mine set to retard all though;
IMO using retard all is much safer -- suppose your car is tuned perfectly and you have no detonation; if something suddenly changes that causes you to get a little detonation (boost spike, bad gas, who knows), then wouldn't you want to immediately retard all cylinders instead of waiting for that detonation to happen in all 4 of your cylinders, possibly causing more damage if it's bad detonation?


The ultra has a boost-dependent retard, just like an msd btm, and it has a map limiter. might be one more thing that i'm overlooking too...

-Xerxes

POLLO

I loved the J&S safeguard when I had it back in 1999. The only problem which at the time, there was not a lot of support. I was driving an OBD2 car with the OBD1 Harness and ECU, so once the J&S was on for some reason the RPM needle will not work... So once I got rid of the J&S the car ran fine and the RPM needle will move again.

Now with the reasonably priced engine management systems, a lot of people rather invest on those.....

DigitalFusion

so would a person still need an upgraded ignition with this unit? I would assume so, but you would nto need the BTM, just a regular 6A or SCI right?