We've been working on a black box we're calling an Anti-Detonation box. No pictures so far because it is just electronics, but here are some features that I would like to get some feedback on:

*Designed to drive any ignition coil, not tricking the ECU by modifying the crank angle sensor signal
*Will work on coil-on-plug ignition systems
*Will have a definable boost/vacuum level when it will begin retarding timing
*Cut-in can be defined by any 5 volt sensor or frequency, so pressure switch, knock sensor, MAP sensor, TPS, etc.
*Amount of timing retard can follow voltage, so it can follow boost with a MAP sensor

The MSD BTM used to be useful for single coil distributor ignition systems, but you couldn't control when it would actually come on, it would just start retarding at 1 psi of boost. And with today's individual coil per cylinder, you would have to have 4 BTMs for a 4 cylinder.

Where is this useful: Timing retard on overboost setting, timing retard under NO2, timing retard that can be introduced based on any input signal. Plus it won't burn out coils due to the proprietary design. You can also use this independently of any ECU as a closed loop safety mechanism.

Is this something that you guys think is needed out there?

 

Holy **** yall been making all kinds of stuff.

 

Who is your target customer? Or what type of car/setup do you envision a person having that would purchase this item?

Sounds like you've been hard at work!!

 

You guys should see the new approach to the wastegate as we know it, that we'll be going live with in a few months, but I digress.

Originally, I thought that this would be great for the pump and regulator guy out there or the companies putting together turbo/SC kits. But as I though about it some more, the factory boosted cars, Evo, WRX, Neon ACR, don't really have much to protect their engine when they decide to buy a $50 boost controller and turn up the boost. Yeah, I know they have knock sensors, but that is reactive, versus, proactive. Bottom line is that it can control timing at the coil level, so that no matter how many crank angle, or cylinder position sensors the OEMs come up with, the kit guys can still be one step ahead.

 

Another piggyback.

 

Yup, a piggy back. But how many piggy backs do you know of that can control the coil, on coil on plug setups? Everything else out there messes with the crank angle sensor, which throws everything completely off.

 

people by BTM's dont they? it all depends on how u market it i rekon. u can sell anything! for that market though, u have to concerntrate on EASY installation, EASY setup and reliable. and dummy proof.

 

That's nice.

 

I am assuming you have checked out J and S Electronics safe-guard? (www.jandssafeguard.com) While they do not specifically support coil on plug they do have a box that can handle 4 coils which would be fine for a four cylinder engine (or you could use two for an eight but obviously that is the dilemma you are trying to solve). They do have adjustable boost retard levels (or more specifically the amount of boost that the box becomes active) and a provision for any other 0-12v input to activate the box. The instructions with the box are not too clear about this so to figure it out I had to make a lot of calls to John at J and S. In the end it was always easier to use hobb switches to have the unit kick in at a pre-determined boost level but then this makes it not adjustable. The unit definately has many points that can be improved upon but in general is a very good piece - once you figure out how to install it and adjust it, that is key.

Of course the best solution would be if the O.E.'s would quit getting more and more intent on encrypting the data in their firmware so us 'evil hackers' can't mess with them and allow us access to some of the assembly code we wouldn't have to spend $100k just to reverse engineer 1 model of control unit. If we could change the algorythms in the ECU to suit our needs everything would be so much more seemless and we wouldn't need to add these damn band-aid piggy-backs.

For now though, make the best of it and if you can make one that supports coil on plug like you are suggesting you are going to make a lot of people happy.

-Scott Tucker

 

sounds like a great idea

 

Sounds like a good idea. Mess with the signals AFTER they leave the ECU. That way you don't have to worry how changing one sensor might affect another.

Besides changing timing, you could use a similar system to configure for bigger injectors, fine-tune the fuel map, add knock sensing in cars without it, etc.

However it would only work as long as the OEM sensors were still operating normally. i.e., it wouldn't work with MAP sensor cars. If the ECU has to be changed to make it work with boost, there is no point in trying to change ignition tining externally when you have already hacked the ECU.

But you know where a big market would be? Newer MAF cars. Kias, Hyundais, Nissans, Mitsubishis. My Kia Rio runs fine in boost with the stock ECU, but I swapped for a MegaSquirt so I could run bigger injectors and safely retard timing in boost. It would be nice to get the OBDII back.

 

Beepy, yeah, the thought was really to have an inexpensive anti-detonation box. We're working on the fuel box as well. These two are piggy's, but it is perfect for the guys trying to make kits out there. If you don't go straight to the coil, you have the potential for screwing around with some other input to the ECU and it all goes haywire downstream. My philosophy is to keep the ECU thinking that everything is normal.

AutoEng2002Si - The new J&S box looks like a good unit, albeit expensive, for that price, you might as well pickup a PowerFC or Greddy Emanage, don't you think? Besides, I read the instructions and since there is an on-board MAP sensor, the max cutin is like 10 psi of boost. This would be kind of useless for cars that can run 15 psi without detonation, but need retard around 17 or so, like some of the factory boosted cars that can run mad boost, stock.

 

COP is great and that alone might make it worth it (depending on cost) BUT what about the possibility of ion sensing knock detection rather than traditional knock sensors? It's already driving the plugs. eg Mitsubishi product

If it had that, I would buy it almost no matter the cost.

 

Sounds like an excellent idea, i know of a few customers that would buy these immediatly.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Synapse &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The new J&S box looks like a good unit, albeit expensive, for that price, you might as well pickup a PowerFC or Greddy Emanage, don't you think?</TD></TR></TABLE>

J&S is definitely not in the same category as Emanage and other bullshit. It's a real tuning tool used in the actual racing industy... I've seen setups running 27psi with J&S safegaurd, you definitely aren't limited to 10psi. The beauty of J&S is the optional gauge, I wish I had that in my car.

I can't wait to see your wastegate... did you change the 90 degree bend that the exhaust has to flow through? I've always wondered why they don't make a &gt;45 degree wastegate, you could flow so much more for a given valve size...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by raene &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ion sensing knock detection rather than traditional</TD></TR></TABLE> - My Engineer and I have discussed this, but I think that there's too much development at this point to fit within the scope of what this would try to accomplish.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Justin Jones &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I can't wait to see your wastegate... did you change the 90 degree bend that the exhaust has to flow through? I've always wondered why they don't make a &gt;45 degree wastegate, you could flow so much more for a given valve size...</TD></TR></TABLE>

I used to think the same thing as well, and my perspective has changed a little bit. I agree that there is some improvement to be done on the 90 degree flow, but the valve and poppet design with a 90 degree discharge work well, given the packaging requirements of streetcars with A/C, the 45 will be saved for a more radical version later. I've really learned in testing this new approach to wastegating that if you have a well matched turbo, you actually don't need flow, you need good flow control and good control of the delta p across the turbine. Bottom line is that you need to be able to customize your wastegate to your turbo and your engine. Wastegating will make the difference between making HP and making even more HP at the same boost pressure. The wastegate that I'm working on is the first WG without a diaphragm so that you can change the spring rate of the spring, even though the pre-load is the same (determines your boost level), to change the wastegating response. It is also the first wastegate with built-in boost control without a boost controller. It uses the same 4-chamber actuator design used on the Synchronic FPR, so given the same spring, you can vary the combination of ports you apply boost pressure to and generate up to 6+ different boost pressures at the actuator level, so no creep at any boost pressure

 

A few S2000's are using our four channel unit.

Giles Gilbert's S2000 is putting down 500 hp at the wheels. He spent a year mapping his AEM, on his own dyno. (holyrollerdyno.com)

He told me that he never felt comfortable with the AEM knock detector. Once he installed the J&S, he emailed back, and said "at last, knock detecting that I can trust".

Another quote:

"The AEM knock control is a pretty hit and miss affair. It also applies to
all cylinders. It can however use up to 2 knock sensors which can be
configured to control bank of cylinders rather than all of them.

My comment about the Safeguard is that when I use my headphones to listen
for that distinctive knock sound, as soon as I hear it the Safeguard LED
flashes ... This is a major break through for me as in the past, due to the
AEM setup I've had false knock triggers as well as missed real knock due to
the fixed noise floor."


Here's an AEM log from Giles, comparing the J&S vs the AEM knock detector:
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/....html

The center plot shows the J&S knock retard voltage, from the monitor jack. He logged it in the "retard all" mode, since it's easier on the data logger. In the individual cylinder mode, the data can change with every spark event, which is too fast for most data logers.

The bottom plot shows both the AEM raw and filtered knock volts.

 

John- It has been a long time, I will PM you.

I agree with John in that everyone is always trying to find an all-in-one solution. But when it comes down to eliminating detonation, or boost control (for example) you almost have to have an independent system that specializes in just that function to keep the mainline ECU in check. Think of it as a backup.

Piggy Backs get a bad rap sometimes, but if you look at the OEM car, there's a piggy back for the automatic transmission, and another for HVAC, etc.