racebum

just was test fitting a set of {precision labeled honda} siemens 650cc injectors on my car tonight and was wondering what you guys with injector dynamics, deka, all the long skinny style injectors are doing to prevent them from going into the manifold. the oem seals fit well enough around the body of the injector but there is absolutely no stop to prevent them from sliding all the way down till the tips hit aluminum in the head. also note, kitty is being used for a work bench



first cheeseball fix i came up with

Natural Aspirations

There is a guy on the board who sells a spacer.... I have 2sets but cannot recall his male. Rusco or something like that... Check the RDX injector thread.

Natural Aspirations

It's "Rosko"

His website is broken but he should answer PM's in here.

rich7777

Nice cat lol.I thought it was a rug at first.

Turbo-LS

iTrader: (4)

I am running the ID1000's i purchased from Xenocron. The aluminum spacers are for the top of the injector to fit into the fuel rail properly and to add length to the injector. The bottom of the injector sits in the oem seal and if i remember correctly the injectors had a small washer around the bottom that was just big enough to fit on the injector and stop at the plastic and the metal part would fit down into the oem seal.

mar778c

iTrader: (1)

You need the RDX adapter.

racebum

basically a similar idea to that chunk of goodyear hose only made out of plastic? that would be ideal.

if any of you guys know how to find the guy or have a link, email or anything else i would go that way. and or i could probably find some plastic stock and with a 1/2" drill bit made spacers. i'm surprised as **** precision doesn't send these injectors out with the required spacers. some noob that installs these would have risk of an injector popping out of the rail

racebum

found his email

rosko@roskoracing.com

racebum

found a pretty reliable solution. for .55 each at lowes a 1/2" copper coupler oddly enough is EXACTLY the right size and within a few thousands of correct for diameter. this fix puts the installed height within 1mm of the OE injectors

these couplers are what you would use to solder to 1/2" pieces of pipe together. not just 1/2" copper pipe which is too small.

now the only question is.....paint em, or....leave it copper

Turbo-LS

iTrader: (4)

There ya go

MRGRIM

iTrader: (1)

polish and clear coat

0xenocron

If you use an OEM cushion on the intake manifold, it will not slide into the intake manifold...

You don't need any spacers or hats for the SPORT COMPACT injector from precision as its already machined for the Honda rail

racebum

i tried it, they can. with the OEM seals that injector will slide into the manifold. it's snug and may never actually press out but the injector does fit into the hole in the manifold which would be an absolute disaster if it ever jiggled down. this was tried on a standard ITR motor. if the p73 manifold is slightly larger than others? i have no idea but this is even more of a disaster in waiting for a noob if you vendors are telling people it won't happen when it's physically possible.

i'm starting to think i should take pictures of this to send precision so they can include a similar fix

0xenocron

Ive personally installed these on many b-series motors, they wont just slide in UNLESS the cushion has been bored out for some reason (seen this before), or if for some reason the injector base was machined down.

Take a picture and post it, it would for sure help...

racebum

the problem is, the injector will slide right through the rubber cushion-seal and there is no stop anywhere on the injector. you may have noticed the older style like oem 240cc injectors have a clear ridge for the seal to rest against and the body is simply too fat to fit down even without the ridge.

when you say "bored out seals" well, they aren't, but even if they were, the seals are rubber. there is no positive stop anywhere on them or the injector. the whole reason you see that copper pipe is to prevent slide down. i have no doubt you could install them and probably even run them as is...the thing is, it simply isn't safe since there is no stop for the injector to rest against and it's physically possible for it to slide out. yes it does take a fair amount of pressure but vibrations over the years and lord knows how many thousands of miles have a way of jiggling things loose, especially with 40+psi and gravity behind it

i'll take pics in a couple weeks when i re install the turbo setup for tuning.

it just baffles me you say that you've installed lot of these yet never have realized that 1. the seal will slide right over the injector right up to the harness plug and 2. if you test fit the injector in the bore of the manifold it will fit right in it.

i mean seriously, look at this. oem seal on the injector. it will go all the way up. this injector will also slide right down the manifold bore till the tip is pressing right into aluminum

shanebadoo

Trust me Racebum, I was in the exact same predicament when I bought my id1000's. Honestly for injectors that cost the sort of cheddar that the ids do, they should come with better fitment, but since we're modders, we mod them to fit. Even with your copper fix, they still might leak.

The best way I found (and I tried many) to get the id 1000's to fit without leaking was to buy a seal kit from Fuel Injector Clinic. He sells some aluminum bottom seats that allow the injector to fit high in the intake manifold like the oem injectors. The aluminum seats make a perfect fit.

Realised that all the words won't make a difference so I tried to upload a pic of what I'm talking about. It's 2:18 am here now, if outside was bright I'd take a pic of them installed now on the car to show you.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2993118...in/photostream

racebum

i'm starting to wish i would have just bought from fuel injector clinic. their stuff actually fits without having to go modding away. when the seal is in the manifold it has a pretty tight vacuum fit around the injector which is probably how guys like our forum sponsor here get away with using them as is. it's just too dangerous for my blood. anytime i can see a part that has the potential for failure i either re engineer it or change the part all together.

i like that aluminum collar fix for the ID's and rosko has those exact collars as shown here

http://www.prelude power.com/forums/showthread.php?t=337498

the problem with these damn siemens injectors is there is no ridge for that seal to mate against like the ID's have. one thought i had was to use a collar like that, cut a groove in it then use an allen screw to suck it together. basically make a clamp to prevent the injector from working its way down. siemens designed this to be a top clip injector which is why it's so popular with mustang/corvette.

Natural Aspirations

Looking at you photos, I'm not sure rosko's ID adapter will work for you. If he is still around and you get him the proper measurements he can likely make something that will work. There is enough of a ridge and an o-ring at the bottom to make it work from what I can see.

racebum

i agree. the the bottom ridge is one way a person could do it, but, it would be hard to not raise the installed height doing this. if the injector sprays high dispersal in the cylinder will not be optimum since it would be shooting into the hole in the manifold rather that just above the intake valve divider. if anything looks questionable about my current idea i think i'm just going to get washers that fit snuggly around the injector, mate a washer up against that copper tubing and the entire lower seal will have a place to rest against.

Natural Aspirations

Using an adapter does not have to change the position of the injector.

A cheap/easy solution similar to your idea would be to drop an appropriately sized washer in the hole for the injector o-ring to mate against.

The tubing-sleeve idea isn't bad, but it doesn't provide any type of seal.

racebum

the oem seals still have a good portion of the lower injector to seal against with the tubing. with the pressure created sitting in the manifold i would guess that i will not have a vacuum leak. these injectors are just a touch larger than the lower portion of a canister style injector so that rubber seal is held tight against the manifold and the injector really has to be worked in and there is substantial pressure pressing against it. i actually think this is how so many people run them as is and haven't had a catastrophic failure yet

i test fit exactly what you said by using a washer on that lower ridge. it does work and it would be quite solid. the only problem is the nozzle height is higher and the injector would be spraying into the manifold bore. what would be absolutely i-fuc king-deal would be to weld an aluminum washer or collar on the underside of the injector bore. then you could set install height wherever you want and be peachy.

0xenocron

I just grabbed a set of new seals and a set of these injectors...the ridge that is on the injector catches the seal just fine. And when you put the cushion in the intake manifold, it compresses it ever so much and shrinks that diameter down a little more...should hold it right in place.

I also grabbed one of those washers I include when I sell Injector Dynamics 1000cc and it works perfectly...no way the injector could slide in if you used this.

If you want 4 of them, pm me your address and I'll send you some

racebum

that's an excellent idea, i'll shoot you a pm.

you can see what i mean though about just using that bottom seal. it's tight yes but there is no real positive stop like the washers you have pictured or the shim i created would provide.

it's simply a tight friction fit without

shanebadoo

Back at cha racebum. Actually went outside and took some pics of how they are installed now on my car. I found some old pics of when I first installed them on my car with the concave washers as well. Unfortunately I didn't use macro feature with the old pics. I pressure test my boost system regularly. I found that with the concave washers, it still leaked from around the injector / inside of the rubber grommet at about 12+ psi. So I was always hunting for ways to make them seal 100 %.

Honestly Racebum, at one point I was wondering if I was the only person that bought these injectors that had a problem with leaks and fitment!?! Either that, or a lot of people don't pressure test their boost system.

VERDICT. The concave washers worked well but not perfect for me. (I stress FOR ME, don't know if they were not installed right) The bottoms from fuel injector clinic actually put the injectors at the right height and allowed them to have good support so they don't fall inside the intake manifold. However, they still leaked from the inside. What I had to do was wrap the injectors with some pipe teflon to seal the inside. I have pics in this post of how they are currently and I can assure you that even @ 30 psi no leaks whatsoever.

The only way I see these injectors fitting right is to use a variant of the FIC bottoms with a 20-30 degree inlet slant so you could put an oring around the injector and they would fit snug inside the bottom aluminum pieces. I actually put orings around the injectors and tried to install them on the FIC bottoms, but a few boost pulls and they blew right out. Hence the teflon tape.

Much respect/credit to Xenocron for offering great support as always, Top notch HT vendor if not the top HT vendor. Team Xenocron (Chris/Ian/Jay) making it happen over there in NY.



In case the pics don't show up just browse through the flickr pics from the links.









http://www.flickr.com/photos/29931189@N04/6875496957/http://www.flickr.com/photos/29931189@N04/6875496957/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/29931189@N04/, on Flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29931189@N04/6875494527/http://www.flickr.com/photos/29931189@N04/6875494527/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/29931189@N04/, on Flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29931189@N04/6875491781/http://www.flickr.com/photos/29931189@N04/6875491781/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/29931189@N04/, on Flickr


http://www.flickr.com/photos/29931189@N04/6875489345/http://www.flickr.com/photos/29931189@N04/6875489345/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/29931189@N04/, on Flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29931189@N04/6875519233/http://www.flickr.com/photos/29931189@N04/6875519233/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/29931189@N04/, on Flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29931189@N04/6875521515/http://www.flickr.com/photos/29931189@N04/6875521515/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/29931189@N04/, on Flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29931189@N04/6875520063/http://www.flickr.com/photos/29931189@N04/6875520063/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/29931189@N04/, on Flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29931189@N04/6867897845/http://www.flickr.com/photos/29931189@N04/6867897845/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/29931189@N04/, on Flickr

racebum

that's a good idea. making me think of potentially using either that tape or liquid teflon dash natural gas pipe thread sealant, one or the other. it would be an anerobic paste i could later around the injector, slide the seal over, and when braced the paste and or tape would act like a second gasket for a tight pressure fit