1SlowSi

I put a wideband on the car the other day on the dyno, and it was in the range of 10:1 - 11:0. It was 11.8 before but after the rebuild i guess alot changed. And it was only .5 mm bigger pistons. the head was rebuilt with the same parts but new. Other than that.. everything is identical to the last setup.

earl

If your motor is running too rich, you will wash the oil off the cylinders and kill the rings in a few days.

non-VTEC

10:1 is to rich

you should have it tuned properly.....most will agree that you want around 12:1 under boost.

BlueShadow

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by non-VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">10:1 is to rich

you should have it tuned properly.....most will agree that you want around 12:1 under boost.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yup, either 11:1, 11.5:1 or 12:1 under boost...light, medium and high vacuum load AFR's will vary. I made a golden sheet using Crome, and I made it into my desktop on my tuning laptop. I start out at 16:1 and I gradually richen it up as the load increases.

beerbongskickass

11.5:1 give or take a few is pretty safe.

2k.civic.si

http://www.innovatemotorsports...h.php

TurboTeG4

My tuner put me under the 10:? under some full boost on my hondata, why? I notice also when I emulate I cant go to the high speed map tables only the low map tables, do I just readjust using only the low map tables?

2k.civic.si

most people seem to tune boosted setups way to rich....read the article i posted above ^^^

1SlowSi

yeah i know 10:1 will cause ring wash. I dont think that has taken affect yet. I dont really hit boost too often. I did the first 3 pulls.

First pull was 400whp, and was in the range of 11:1-11.5:1
2nd - 390whp, 10.5:1 - 11.2:1
3rd - 378whp, 10:1 - 10.5:1

My last run was 425whp, 11.8:1 - 12.3:1

I guess ill just stop boosting until i can get re-tuned. When you get ring wash, does it damage the rings and walls permanantly?

beerbongskickass

Those first 3 runs are pretty rich (10:1 to 11.5:1), but your last run was looking pretty good and safe right around 12:1 (I'd stay right there at 12:1 or high 11's).

BlueShadow

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2k.civic.si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">most people seem to tune boosted setups way to rich....read the article i posted above ^^^</TD></TR></TABLE>

Probably cause some people feel there is a little more margin of safety when going with a slightly richer mixture? I've been debating changing my target AFRs for some time now. Not sure if I wanna do 11:1 with 12:1 in the vacuum to boost transition, or 12:1 in boost and 12.5:1 and 13:1 in transition.

1SlowSi

yeah, they were rich as hell. Im gonna try and get the charts to post. I only have paper and not .jpg. For the first 3 pulls, you'll see the AF is consistant, but all below each other all the way down to the 10's. All well.. i gotta tune point blank.

2k.civic.si

i typically tune forced induction setups to around 12.5:1 and n/a to 13-13.5:1....if you have the ecu setup right it will make corrections for increased/decreased intake air temps so you keep a consistent a/f ratio

1SlowSi

i dont think the s200 does that. Im sure the s300 does.

TurboTeG4

You running s200b si, if so I cant emulate on the high speed tables, do I have to shut down the freakin car and datalog then switch to high speed tables, WHAT GIVES&gt;?

flip1199

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2k.civic.si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">most people seem to tune boosted setups way to rich....read the article i posted above ^^^</TD></TR></TABLE>

taken from the site u posted...

"Most engines produce maximum power (with optimized ignition timing) at an air-fuel-ratio between 12 and 13. Let's assume the optimum is in the middle at 12.5."

"So where does the knock suppression of richer mixtures come from?

If the mixture gets ignited by the spark, a flame front spreads out from the spark plug. This burning mixture increases the pressure and temperature in the cylinder. At some time in the process the pressures and temperatures peak. The speed of the flame front is dependent on mixture density and AFR. A richer or leaner AFR than about 12-13 AFR burns slower. A denser mixture burns faster.

So with a turbo under boost the mixture density raises and results in a faster burning mixture. The closer the peak pressure is to TDC, the higher that peak pressure is, resulting in a high knock probability. Also there is less leverage on the crankshaft for the pressure to produce torque, and, therefore, less power.

Richening up the mixture results in a slower burn, moving the pressure peak later where there is more leverage, hence more torque. Also the pressure peak is lower at a later crank angle and the knock probability is reduced. The same effect can be achieved with an optimum power mixture and more ignition retard. "

and to sum it up..

"Therefore a richer mixture releases less energy, lowering peak pressures and temperatures, and produces less power."

i'm pretty sure everyone knows that by running a little leaner you can make more power. but it's not always about making the most power. it's about having a reliable car. if i'm running on stock sleeves and stock pistons/rods i would rather have it last on 350whp then to have 400whp for a week.

2k.civic.si

u missed the whole point of the article....u can run less fuel with less timing and make the same power reliably...as opposed to running rich with more timing...running rich will cause more problems in the long run then tuning properly

O3DigitalBath

very interesting article, thumbs up

non-VTEC

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2k.civic.si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> running rich will cause more problems in the long run then tuning properly</TD></TR></TABLE>

agreed.......i lost my first motor by running way to rich (10:1 or less)

keep it at around 12:1 guys and you will be fine

SOHFAST94

10:1 or less means that you'll have to check your fuel level with your dipstick un: Man I'm dry this morning hehe, long weekend :cough: :cough:

flip1199

well i dont know any tuner that tunes for 10:1. when i meant a little richer i was leaning towards 11:1-11.5:1. i haven't heard of anyone loosing a motor from running that rich.

Tony the Tiger

We are talking about full throttle full boost runs, right?

Most importantly, have the car well tuned for cruising/daily driving maps. I see a lot of washed out motors before guys even started boosting them. Your engine spends most of its time in cruising/daily driving, and it is very important to have the A/F tuned and with the closed loop O2 working. That is also the time which the engine, chambers, valves, plugs, etc.. self clean and get rid of carbon deposits which prevents rings from sticking and continue further damage from rich A/F's. With heavy carbon deposits as well as fuel washing out the oil film on the bores, it kills the motor even faster.

It's definitely safe to tune the motor as rich as 11.0:1 during full boost full load conditions. Anything richer is up to the tuner. Some tuners I know always prefer to have the A/F's dip into the 10's during onset boost. The engine doesn't see full boost for that long anyway, maybe a minute at most if you do a zero to topspeed run.

The article that was posted above is absolutely true, but ONLY if all conditions are consistent. Richer A/F's do offer safety, but not only from later burn or absorbing heat. Your fuel system can sometimes fail to keep up during high stress conditions (5th gear pulls, very hot weather, low gas in tank, etc...), and the richer A/F's automatically give a larger margin of safety. The engine will safely run anywhere from 11.0:1 up to 12.5:1. If you tune the car at 12.5:1 from the start, any slight leaning out will put the engine in danger zone.

tfnaaf

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tony the Tiger &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We are talking about full throttle full boost runs, right?

Most importantly, have the car well tuned for cruising/daily driving maps. I see a lot of washed out motors before guys even started boosting them. Your engine spends most of its time in cruising/daily driving, and it is very important to have the A/F tuned and with the closed loop O2 working. That is also the time which the engine, chambers, valves, plugs, etc.. self clean and get rid of carbon deposits which prevents rings from sticking and continue further damage from rich A/F's. With heavy carbon deposits as well as fuel washing out the oil film on the bores, it kills the motor even faster.

It's definitely safe to tune the motor as rich as 11.0:1 during full boost full load conditions. Anything richer is up to the tuner. Some tuners I know always prefer to have the A/F's dip into the 10's during onset boost. The engine doesn't see full boost for that long anyway, maybe a minute at most if you do a zero to topspeed run.

The article that was posted above is absolutely true, but ONLY if all conditions are consistent. Richer A/F's do offer safety, but not only from later burn or absorbing heat. Your fuel system can sometimes fail to keep up during high stress conditions (5th gear pulls, very hot weather, low gas in tank, etc...), and the richer A/F's automatically give a larger margin of safety. The engine will safely run anywhere from 11.0:1 up to 12.5:1. If you tune the car at 12.5:1 from the start, any slight leaning out will put the engine in danger zone.</TD></TR></TABLE>

So then as long as your getting no Detonation @12.5 it would be ideal? And even leaner assuming your not Detonating?

TurboTeG4

http://www.hondata.net/forum/v...10071

"I paid $300.00 for my tuner to tune my car but as soon as I go into WOT my a/f goes into the 10's on my aem wideband gauge uego. I would consider that to be too rich and would like it at least in the 11's. Ive tuned my part throttle maps also because it was also way to rich. But when I emulate and enter boost I cant seem to get into the high speed maps to adjust it?

I take it all the boost tables to adjust must be edited in the high speed maps. Do I need to turn off my datalogging to adjust the high speed maps? I figure it will be hard for me to tune it in 4 cells at a time considering ill be going pretty fast during wot(Street Tuning), should I just highlight a good portion of the boosted map at the rpm and pressure that I go into the a/f 10's. Im making 300whp on a built motor but am concerned about being too dam rich. Figure its in the 10's till redline so ill just highlight the whole portion of the map and adjust. I guess I can only gain power by putting it anywhere in the 11's, 10's dont even read on my aem"

2k.civic.si

u could always just raise the boost a pound or so to lean it out a bit